Welcome to the PBL Simplified podcast for administrators brought to you by Magnify Learning, your customized PBL partner. From over a decade of experience with you in the trenches, we are bringing you this top rated educational podcast designed for visionary school administrators seeking to transform their schools with project-based learning. Launch your vision, live your why, and lead inspired. Here's your host, Ryan Steuer. Welcome to the PBL Simplified podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Steuer. If this is your first time on the podcast, I want you to go to whatisp.com. That's whatispbl.com and you can get your free resource for administrators. We're just going to give you a set of resources to get you started on your PBL journey. I want to thank you for coming to the podcast and this is the podcast gives you everything there is to know about project-based learning for administrators specifically. And sometimes that's solo episodes with me, but sometimes it's also guest episodes like today. So today, Today on the podcast we have Gabrielle with us and she is a speech language pathologist and parent coach. So you'd like to think that her main focus would be on how to talk to kids and it is uh sort of but because the thing that she really is most passionate about and the thing she most wants you to know as an educator is that your relationship with students is the most important thing in education. And there you know why Gabrielle's on the podcast today. Gabrielle, thanks for being with us today.
Thanks for having me. Ryan, I'm excited to be here. Especially after that intro, I'm like, "Yeah, let's go."
Right. You're fired up. And that's part of what we do in project based learning is the relationship side of educators and kids. Like we know u there's a great TED talk by Rita Pearson that if the kids don't like you, they're probably not going to learn from you, right? Like she's got such a great line and right and she can say that. So I love showing that. But at the heart of that is this idea that we do want relationship in education. It's more than standardized tests. It's more than just knowledge, which brings us to our first question that every guest gets. So, what is your why for the work that you do, Gabrielle?
My why is that I would like for all children, and this is ambitious and probably not realistic, but I want all children to be seen like truly seen by their adults.
I like that. I think it is realistic. Um, I do think it takes a movement, right, which is we talk about that a lot in this podcast, is that You know, we're all doing our things individually as these small lights, but when we come together, we're that bright light and we're a movement and we want 51% of kids to be in a PBL environment by 201. So, yes, we're giving ourselves 37 years to do this work, but so it's going to take time, but yeah, I love that. I think every kid can be seen and we want our parents to see our kids obviously. Um, but as we're in schools and we're in education, we can see our kids and we can help our kids be seen. And we've just heard too many stories of, you know, I had this one teacher that believed in me and like boom, that's all it took, right? And they're off and running and suddenly they're a billionaire or a nonprofit leader or whatever it is they're doing
or a functional human.
There you go. That's right. Right. We just need to be seen.
Yeah
So, let's let's dive into kind of your work specifically and kind of why you're why I brought you on the podcast, right? Is you you have this kind of interesting role, I think. So, you you've got a passion role as a speech language pathologist and a parent coach, which as executive coach, which I do. I love this idea of a parent coach. It's interesting. So, what do you see as the most important aspect that, you know, we can work on in classrooms? As you're out kind of coaching parents and looking at language pathology in the classroom, what do you think we can do to help?
So, I think, you know, the game is the same. Um, and I like to talk about nervous systems because I find that when we talk about nervous systems like instead of people and Of course, those are the same because we're all walking around with a nervous system, but somehow it depersonalizes it takes the um takes like the personality out of it a little bit. And so, and and to answer the question that you asked is like what can we be doing? We can be in the active process of recognizing at any given moment what our nervous system is doing
as adults and also be in the position of recognizing how number one, how that's impacting the children but also what their nervous systems are doing. Um, and when I started out life as a as a speech therapist, which is speech language pathologist is a fancy name for speech therapist, right?
Sure.
Um,
it was all about like techniques to get kids to talk. And I was like, well, hang on because I can't force anyone to talk. And so it became very clear very early that like I need you to get you to trust me and like me. and know me, right? And this is the same thing that teachers are dealing with all the time, right? They they must be so attractive. Rita Pearson says it beautifully in that TED talk. We must be so attractive to the children that we work with that they would like to do what we ask them to do because we actually cannot force them to do it.
Yeah.
And anybody who's ever tried has failed miserably.
Yeah. That's right. That's super good. I think especially coming from somebody that just said, "I want every kid to be seen."
Yeah. Relationships are so important to do that work. Sometimes we have to step out and say, "Hey, there are a lot of forces at play here, right? It might not be the right time for a hug, right?" So, we look at nervous systems and you didn't let the adults off the hook,
right? So, the administrators are listening. It's like, as the the leader of a building, we need to check our nervous system. Where are we at?
Right? We need to help our teachers look at theirs so that we can serve our learners best.
And you know this better than anybody, school culture starts at the top. I have been in too many schools and I mostly go into preschools but I have been in too many schools where the
where the adults are, let's say lamenting, so I don't say complaining about how the students are treating each other and you know when you're dealing with preschoolers like nobody knows how to treat each other. They're just trying to like walk around and not bump into each other. But at the same time that culture of inclusion, that culture of acceptance, of neurodeiversity, of of different behaviors, of different aabledness. That comes from the grown-ups in the building.
Yeah.
It doesn't come from the kids. If we let it come from the kids, that'll be a terrible environment for everybody.
That's right. That's super good. I mean, John Maxwell says that leadership is the lid, right? Like, we can't get above leadership. So, our adult culture is going to drive our student culture, and it won't go the other way around. And I always like to add that if it were the case it was the other way around, Then somehow lunchrooms would be these bastions of great knowledge. And so far I don't know of any solutions that have come out of there. But let me dive into some words that frankly I don't know what they mean which is another reason I brought you on. Right? Because we've got to get some info on our podcast to our administrators and I don't want to be the lid. Right. So the one one way that I get around that is I bring people on. So you talk about these terms attachment and attunement
and one I need you to define them for me but also as leaders that are listening. You know what are these terms mean to the teachers that are in the classroom.
Yeah. So, um a these are these are like psychother psychology terms mostly and I as a speech language pathologist didn't get any training in them and it was very frustrating to me. So, over the years I have kind of like
gone over to the psychology literature and been like what is this about? So, loosely attachment is the relationship the strength of the relationship between two people right so and in this case we're talking about adult to child. So how firmly how well attached is a child to their primary caregivers? That's where that term comes from, right? And we can have insecure attachment or you know there's all kinds of different ones that I won't get into. The main point about that is really again Rita Pearson says it beautifully in her TED talk like we need to like and be liked by our students,
right? So that's a piece of it and we need for students to feel safe with us, right? A safe nervous system is a regulated nervous system, meaning I feel good in my body. I feel ready to learn. Um, right? I'm able to hang with whatever the teacher is is is throwing down um and whatever is going on in the classroom if I am well regulated. And regulation comes from attachment.
Okay. How about attunement? What is that?
Yeah, attunement is something that mostly adults do. Um, in order to h uh we we change gh I'm I'm I'm trying to stay away from the word vibration, but I'm going to go ahead and use it and then we'll come back to it.
We the adults must attune our nervous systems. We change our nervous system firing to match that of the child. and then use that match to bring the child closer to where we want them to be.
Okay.
In a regulated state,
we have to do some matching there. Yeah.
Can can I maybe give an example? Like whenever I know when I was in the classroom, whenever things got over the top or there was a a tense situation, I would get just completely to the other side and just be so ridiculously calm that it was hard to not match me. Like, oh
yes,
I see that something happening here.
What do you think we should do about Right. And even slow down my voice. Chris Voss from Never Split the Difference says like that midnight DJ voice of, "Hey everybody, let's see what's happening." Is is that kind of what we're talking about with the two?
That is exactly what we're talking about. Yes. Right.
Yeah. And actually the thing you're describing is allowing the students to attune to you.
Okay.
Which is interesting, right? Because you're leveraging your leading in that moment with your nervous system. That's that's that's a form of leadership. And we've all done it. Actually, anybody who's presented in front of other people,
right, you can get real up and animated or you can come down and get calm and you you you sway the room. Like a gifted speaker can make you feel a whole bunch of stuff and you're just like on the ride with them.
Um I think
Can I give one more example, Gabrielle? Sorry, because this is one that was was close for a while and and it's not on the fun side. This is where you know in a school maybe we've lost a student,
right? Like we had a there was an incident and And we did. We lost the student. Um, and the principal then I think, and tell me if I'm wrong or where this goes, but like the principal had to attune like he had to kind of set the tone.
Yeah.
That we were all going to get through this. And you know, people are crying of course, right? And everyone's upset. The principal is too, but the principal set the tone of this is how we're going to operate today. Is that another example for our leaders?
Yes. Yes.
And I'm and and the reason I bring this one up is one I want to have I've got another guest lined up to kind of tackle this subject of what do you do when you lose a student in your school? Because unfortunately it does happen.
Um, and the interesting part that I wonder if everyone knows is that this leader was a leader of a large high school talking like 3,000 kids. And when he got into our mastermind, he kind of had a place where he could have like broken down, if you will, because he didn't feel attuned to, hey, everything's calm and clear. He was hurt. He was broken. It hurt. But he knew that he was going to set the tone so that he could lead his building and that's what people needed. It wasn't fake, right? But he attuned on purpose. Is that a fair way to apply that?
Yeah, it is. It is very much on purpose. The way that I think about it most and I think those two examples are beautiful. Um is is I often deal with um with kiddos who have a nervous system disorder. So they're autistic, they have ADHD, right? They're they are having a hard time being in their bodies. A lot of the time.
So, what that looks like for me is is I think to your first example, like I'm uber calm because that rubs off on them.
Yeah.
And then they come to where I am. And then the other piece of that also though is then I'm also matching interest level and I'm matching um I'm kind of letting them be the expert, right? And coming in alongside of them. And now we're playing on the same field, right? We're getting closer we're we're in relationship to yeah to each other.
Well, I like that example where you just took us there. Right. So, in project based learning, we want to be solving authentic problems, right? And we want our learners to be solving them. So, what I just heard you say is now we're kind of bringing our learner through an attunement protocol, if you will, up to the level of expert, right? And no longer the passive recipient of information,
right? And and we're doing that intentionally, right? We're doing that with the real world problem and how else do we do that? What what what does that look like? Because that one really sparks my interest right there because I because we love the authenticity of the work because it puts our learners in that in that position of expert. So, is there a way for us to kind of purposely attune them to this idea of expert?
Yeah. And I think it has to do now this is where it gets sticky for some educators, I think, and you you'll be able to weigh in on this, but
I think child le is a big deal.
Yeah.
Particularly for and again I'm dealing with a lot of neurode divergent kiddos, right? So, those who have speech and language disabilities or or other kinds of of things going on. Um, but control and inflexibility, I'm putting all those in air quotes, right, are are terms that we use or stubborn or OCD or whatever we want to call kids who have a strong um need really for things to be a certain way. If we don't go in with with childled kind of principles there if we don't if we don't go in with again attunement to that. Um we're going to be number one tripping their nervous system into disregulation which is not a place anyone can learn and number two we're going to be in a battle and for what
sure
so but I do appreciate and and again you could speak to this better than I can probably about in the school environment how are we accommodating multiple learners needs right and multiple nervous system types Yeah, super good. So, let's let's kind of go there a little bit because you talk about neurobiology of these practices and how it can affect a positive classroom culture.
So, um I think maybe you say climate, we'd probably say culture. I I think we're we're in the same realm, right? And and we think culture is a big deal, right? Like if you've got a positive classroom culture that's empowering, that's studentled as you're talking about, right? Then good things are happening without me having to devise every one of them, right? Because there's a positive culture.
So, So, how could can you give us an application of the neurobiology to our PBL classrooms? How can we do some of these things on purpose?
Yeah, I think um and again all of this is work and it requires you know mileage and sensitivity. So, I think and experience. So, I think you know I'll say some things and then people be like, "Oh my god, I have no idea how to do that." Yeah. And you'll
we don't mind that here, Gabrielle. We don't mind that things to aspire to, right? Go for it.
So, and and point of fact, neither do I, by the way, which is why I only deal with students one-on-one. Okay?
Okay.
But in a classroom, you're always going to have several different neurotypes, right? Different brains wired differently. You're going to have the kid who seeks um who's a crasher, who seeks a lot of propriioceptive input, who's like bumping into walls and bumping into kids and can't sit on the floor for a circle or whatever it is that you need them to do or can't sit at a ask, right? You've got that guy or a girl, you've got that child. Trying to get away from such gendered language. That's a whole other podcast, but there you go. And then you've got the internal internalizers who are also disregulated, but they don't seem like it cuz they are deer in headlights. And then you've got the kids who are mostly fine most of the time. I call those dandelions. Um I call the other ones orchids. Um sometimes you got a tulip in there, you know, who's kind of like half and half. And so, as a teacher, like this is a lot of information to process, right? You I am constantly sending out little little little pings, little sonar to everybody's nervous system if I'm in a group, and again, I don't do it very often, but um and so you got to be tracking a lot of stuff.
Yeah.
And again, then monitoring your own nervous system. I think the minute it breaks down, because teachers are they do this all the time. They do it very naturally, I think, in in lots of cases. Where it breaks down is when we're trying to pour from an empty cup. Um the adults are trying to pour from an empty cup and we don't have we don't have it within us.
And and then we run into like, okay, well, I can't tag out, so what am I going to do? So, again, I don't have any answers, but that's kind of how it plays in my head.
No, I appreciate it. And again, I think you're bringing some language to some of the the secret sauce of PBL. Right. So, if you look at some of our teachers, some of our facilitators that are just rock stars, they walk into a room with 30 kids, like you said, all in different spots nervous system wise, like what happened this morning, right, would wreck most adults, but here they are. And then they step into the room and they say, "Hey, you know what? There are kids that have a genetic disease and their parents are going to find out today. And I think you guys are the perfect people to talk to them about it so that they know what's going to happen next. I think you can do it. And if if I can use this attunement word that I'm like new to but like suddenly love, right, is like if you catch their I I might say vibe. I don't know if that goes in the psychology journals, right? But
no, but this is exactly what we're talking about. And so let's put words around I I I'm so thrilled that you said secret sauce because literally my entire professional career I've been like, what is this secret sauce? I think it's attunement. I really do.
Right. It's attunement or this vibe that they put off that I'm so confident in you that you can you can do this and those kids are sitting there going, "Oh, I mean, I guess I can like Mr. Storyer says I can, so I must be able to, right?" And they just they just attuned to this confidence that, you know, our rockstar PBLers have that cuz cuz if you set it to individually or if you said it maybe unconfidently, like some of the things that our teachers are doing in the classroom are so over-the-top amazing and they typically end up in the news or the newspaper, right, in a positive light.
I could see many of our learners being like there's no way I could do that but we have this thing called an entry event and we're like you can do it and it's going to be awesome and ready here we go you know and so is that kind of the secret sauce is that a little bit of what we're talking about and it's just kind of rooted in this these uh neurobiology pieces that maybe we don't know about
yeah I think there's a lot to be said for that and there's a lot to be said for that like confidence and conviction and again like matching of of of of energy essentially right
yeah And then there's there will always be and I think I for sure have blamed myself for this as a as an early professional and I'm sure that teachers are doing the same. There will always be the child who seems like they're unreachable,
unavailable, unattracted to what it is that is is being laid down. Um, and that that's number one that's okay and that's normal. And number two, that even even in the proc in the doing of what you have just said that that is a value even to that child who can't participate right now.
Okay.
Right.
Okay.
Um and we might have to circle back.
Yeah. Right. Let's let me poke at that for just a second. So
I launched this to 30 kids.
I know I've got one guy his his hands are folded in the back. He's not picking up what I'm putting down,
but in some way he is. I think some maybe he didn't fully get my vibe, but after maybe the next PBL unit or the next PBL unit, I'm kind of gently inviting him in. Right. So, there is progress is what you're saying in that. Is that right?
Yeah. And meeting kids where they are. I mean, this strikes me as something that you maybe you've maybe you've studied this, but probably started doing it and then realized what you were doing, which is to me. Yeah.
Right.
Which is which is matching, which is putting meaning around what's happening that is is going to benefit you and the child. So, what I heard you say was kiddo's in the back. He's got his hands folded. Huh, I wonder why that is. Huh, I wonder what I could do that might make him want to come rather than I wonder why he's not paying attention to me.
Yeah, right. There's a difference there, right?
There's a huge difference. Even if our behavior is the same, the energetics of that are real. And by the way, particularly for neurody divergent kiddos and those who have speech and language and blah blah blah right they are paying this is true of all children I don't even know why I qualify this they are paying so much more attention to the signals that our bodies are delivering than the words that we say
you cannot phone it in if you are working with children you cannot
right
it will always backfire
let's come into a couple practical strategies uh specifically for for leaders for principles if we can. So, um I had Danny Bower from Better Leaders Better Schools on and we talked a little bit about this idea that you know everybody likes to see an adult lose it like YouTube videos show that right and like so kids do like kids are poking and as soon as a teacher loses it like essentially they won right and every they're all looking for that. So as adults it's the only way we lose right is we actually we kind of lose our composure and you're right we might be like our cup might be empty whatever it is like I get it it happens right but if I'm an administrator and I've had a teacher that for whatever reason, you know, kind of lost their composure. Um they kind of um weren't paying attention to their nervous system, if you will, and just kind of over the top, you know, maybe yelled at their class kind of thing. What's a practical strategy that a principal can bring to that teacher?
Because they're they're likely a great educator, right? They're passionate. They're in it for the right reasons. They're trying to do a really good job. But goodness, it's February and I've got 30 kids, right? And I'm trying to do these things. So, it just happens, right? So, the principal's like, "We're not looking to get rid of this person. We're not looking to fire this person. We're looking to help this teacher who had a bad day. What are some practical strategies we can use?"
I mean, I think it's the same strategy we use with we we we optimally use with the kids, which is this seemed like it was really hard for you. How can I help this be better? How can I help you? Um because again, that attunement peace, right?
Nobody wins when we're in in an adversarial tugof-war.
Um and and especially when you're the leader, again, back to that school culture piece, right? How is it that we are treating our employees?
Yeah.
Are we being now? Are we also being clear about what the expectation is? Because I know you said we don't want to get rid of anybody. It's February, blah, blah, blah. But then there's also this question of like, are you in the right Are you in the right job? Are you in the right school?
Oh, 100%. 100%. Like some sometimes we need to help people find a different position. Like that's a real thing. Our leaders know that we do that, right? And
yeah,
I know we also get the the situation that comes up, you know, like you said, it's
um education's not always it's not an easy gig, right? And it's you're not here just to pull a paycheck. It's a passionate piece. And sometimes it's because we're passionate because it's personal that then when a learner doesn't get it or they don't want to get it, it becomes personal like sometimes we take it personally right so I I love your suggestion of let's watch our nervous system as the leader when we approach this teacher right we're coming in and say you know I'm going to name the situation it seems like that was hard for you I heard that seventh seventh period was hard for you how can I help
yeah
and I can just see the teacher kind of melting for just a second okay you're not yelling at me right you're trying to help me right you're you're acknowledging that I'm a good teacher that wants to help kids, right? So, typically if it works for the kids, it works for adults. That's we we find that a lot.
I mean, this is the thing, right? And this this sentence I have found this, you know, I tell every parent I meet, right? If we can get to a place, and I think it holds true here for the adults in the room. If we can get to a place where we can realize, oh, this person is having a hard time, not giving me a hard time,
okay,
the whole equation shifts. And so that's true. your administrator with their with their staff. That's true of the classroom teachers with their students. Um, if we can do that shift and that's that's some that can be a heavy lift, right? Like but it only takes a second because once that happens then you're like, "Oh, now you can have compassion, you can have empathy, you can work towards solutions because you're not all in a lather about why are you doing this so badly? and making me look bad and making your students upset.
Mhm.
Nobody wins there.
Yeah, that's right. I like that framing. I think framing is really important. So, you know that child, that teacher, they're not trying to make it hard for us, but they're having a hard time. And honestly, even if it's not true, it's still the best frame to come with, right? It's like, you know, even if they are kind of being a stinker, it's still the right frame to come with. Does that make sense? Can we go to kind of your parent coaching for like one for one of our last questions? Yeah.
Is this idea of like you're you're coaching parents,
you know, maybe they've got some neurodiversity, um some speech issues possibly, but in some way they didn't fully fit into our our school mold in some form maybe.
Um you're talking to parents. What do the parents want us to know as educators,
as leaders of this building? What do they want us to know about their child
when you're having these conversations?
Yeah, you're asking the question in a way that makes me think that the parents are neurode divergent, which often they are.
Interesting. Right.
Yeah. Um and many of the parents that I that I coach have neurode divergent children. Um and so really what they want you to know is school is not working for them
and they need for their educators to back to my earlier point like really see their child and they are fully aware that And that's difficult in a room of 30 kids.
It's a both. And
you know what? That's actually really helpful because sometimes it's like, "Hey, I need you to see my kid. I'm going to see 125 kids today actually." Right? It's like, "And you want me to see your kid?" And again,
the people that are listening, they're passionate, high-f flyers. Like, they get it. But still, it's like, "Yep, your kid is the most important for you, but I've got, if it's an administrator, I've got 600 kids. I've got 3,000 kids." Right? And you want me to see your one.
So that even just that little admission of like they know it's difficult. I think that's helpful.
Yeah. Yeah. I um the many of the parents that I work with, most of the parents I work with, they want to collaborate with the school. And I also want to kind of call out this um feeling that if if a child is unhappy at school and if the parents are unhappy at school that somehow it's the teacher's fault. Like I think we again back to like I think we take a lot of that on because we're dogooders and we want to help kids and we're doing what we love and when it doesn't go well we blame ourselves. And I think that there's another tweak that um humans are not particularly good at because we want things to go well and we want to avoid pleasure and excuse me avoid pain, seek pleasure and do a good job, right? But it's like I did the best I could today and I'm okay with that. Right? Like that's a big self-t talk goal of of many of us. It's like it would be really nice if we could talk to ourselves the way we talk to our best friends.
Right.
Right. And not
like like we're some, you know, bad bad person.
That's a Yeah, that's a great point. It's a point I make anytime I'm talking to new teachers or pre-teachers. Like that's that's typically somewhere that's one of my bullet points, right? Is like as positively I can you're going to be the worst teacher you've ever been this year. Like meaning that you're going to get better, right? Like you're going to be so much better after this year. After 6 months, you'll be better three years from now. You're going to be better, right? We keep getting better and we need to give ourselves some grace.
Yeah, it's a mileage sport for sure.
There you go.
It is a mileage sport.
I love it. So, if you want to get more of this from Gabrielle, you can go to the complicated kit podcast. It's all Always fun to recommend another podcast on my podcast, right? Because you know, you're listening to a podcast right now. So, all you need to do is go to the search function, put in complicated kid, complicated kid podcast, and you get more of these ideas. Gabrielle, I've got one last question for you. So, imagine that you're in a front of in the front of a room full of teachers and principles. They're pouring their hearts and soul into the work every day. These are high-f flyers. They truly desire the best outcomes and opportunities for their their learners. What parting advice do you have for them on their PBL? journey.
Get curious about the kids that trigger you the most.
Excellent. I I love that. I'm going to let that one sit because I love curiosity. That's super important. Get curious about the kids that that kind of bug you the most. And get curious about the teachers that bug you the most. Right. So, we can do both of those because you can't be angry if you're curious.
Right. That's right.
It's really hard to be angry if you're being curious. Ariel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I think you put words to a lot of the things that we value around here on PBL Simplified podcast and at Magnify Learning. Uh, so I always appreciate that. Um, I've got some notes in that I've been typing up and I've got a couple tabs up. So, I've got some more research to do on attunement and attachment. Uh, so thank you so much for being on here and sharing. I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
All right, movement makers. Uh, you just got a a leader guest episode and I think there's some challenges in here for us, right? You don't get to just say that's the grumpy teacher or that's the kid that's hard to work with. Uh we're going to be curious about those things and we're going to model um you know this attunement idea like we're going to model um being calm and and but passionate and inspiring. And when we do that, we can now model that for our teachers. We can model it for our learners. And we're going to make that a value that we have. Uh so you now have that challenge. That's your that's your call to action. is to find out where do you need to be a little more curious in those next conversations that you have with that maybe difficult kid or difficult teacher or even a difficult parent. Bring some curiosity to that situation and I think we're all going to move a little bit farther down the line in bringing 51 to 51. Thank you so much for tuning in. Go lead inspire. That's just what I needed to bring PBL to my school. If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing the show. It only takes 2 minutes to scroll to the bottom. Tap to rate with five stars and select write a review. Then be sure to let us know what was most helpful about that episode. Your review helps the next inspired leader just like you find their why and lead inspired.
