Welcome to the PBL Simplified podcast for administrators brought to you by Magnify Learning, your customized PBL partner. From over a decade of experience with you in the trenches, we are bringing you this top rated educational podcast designed for visionary school administrators seeking to transform their schools with project-based learning. Launch your vision, live your why, and lead inspired. Here's your host, Ryan Steuer.
Welcome to the PBL Simplified podcast. I'm your host Ryan Steuer with Magnify Learning. And if it's your first time here, I'd like you to go to whatisp.com. What ispbl.com and you can get resources specifically for administrators, leaders of schools to figure out how to get how to craft your vision and then how to implement your vision. So, if you're just starting your PBL journey, that's where you want to head to. And if you've been returning or again, if it's your first time, you're in for a treat. Uh this is a leadership guest episode. So, here the This is not me doing solo. I bring on a guest who is somehow related to project-based learning. Uh we know we've had uh martial artists on the podcast before. We talk about SEAL. Today we've got Matt Taylor who leads the Noble Story Group. It's consulting firm that brings an emotional intelligent-based approach to leadership development in education and nonprofit organizations. So leaders, we are talking about you and your development. Don't shut that off. You need development. So stay with us. Matt's also the author of The Noble School Leader. a practical guide for school leaders and managers seeking concrete strategies for professional improvement. I know that's you all movement makers. He has extensive experience teaching in and leading schools having worked in urban urban neighborhood urban charter international private and magnet schools. So he's boots on the ground as well. You know now why Matt is on the podcast. Matt, thanks for joining us.
Thank you Ryan. It's great to be here.
Uh super good to have you. Uh you know somebody who has done the work, who's written about the work, who's working with leaders right now. uh like we talked off air just a little bit like this is your audience, these are your people. So glad to make the introduction for you to add value to our folks. So every guest gets the same first question because I' I've been talking about Simon Sinek for a decade. I lead every PD. We talk about the why, the how, and the what. So what's your why for the work that you do?
Yeah. Um you know, I I'm a career educator, Ryan. I've been a teacher since I graduated from college. lots of different kinds of schools as you described. Uh I was a principal of a middle school. Uh and so what at one level my why is I'm a teacher, you know, I'm an educator. Um but more specifically, you know, after I was a principal, I I I started a principal in residence training program and started training leaders. And uh it was a really neat program uh because it was as a residency program, I was in schools all the time. So, I had just stepped out of the principal seat
and then I was kind of on the balcony and lots of different schools uh interestingly both urban district schools and charter schools and so we were in both of these contexts and our residents uh did a residency in in both contexts and I was able to go in there you know doing learning walks with them uh looking at best practices and um I kind of had this epiphany you know that uh I was either seeing teachers and leaders with great technical instructional skills um but often with with students and teachers who were unhappy and not not thriving in their learning or I was seeing kind of quote unquote happy places where kids weren't being challenged and also weren't learning.
Uh and it was hard to get that sweet spot in the middle right and for me that sweet spot is a place where people are connected adults and kids are connected feel cared for and tend to feel challenged at the same time right that's to me that's that's the conditions for learning uh for all human beings and I was feeling a lot of dissonance about this and that's about the time I got this uh executive coach training grounded in emotional intelligence and it it kind of changed my life you know it it gave me a language to talk about what I was seeing that wasn't working a language and a framework and so you know over the last 15 years I kind of have figured out a way to operationalize the emotional intelligence competencies as a way to coach and train to build the kind of people leadership or adaptive leadership skills that leaders need to create these conditions for learning. Uh so my why is like I'm in the business of creating the conditions for learning and thriving for for individuals, learners, for teams and for learning communities.
Yeah, I love that. And as you go through your career, you kind depends on what your what your calling is and what your path looks like. But on this podcast, we're talking to leaders specifically. So, we've all taken an approach where we want all these practices and PBL practices, the authentic work in the classroom. And we see that like John Maxwell would say that leadership is the lid. So, let's go to the leadership level, really employ some of these same training and learning practices and, you know, serve the adults that are in the school so that, you know, we can magnify some of this work. So, let's let's get into how to do that, Matt. So, you're you're an accredited executive coach, like you said. You've been through training. You've been through a lot of accreditation. Uh coaching is in the education world, I found, is not prevalent. We don't all know what that means, and frankly, the business world doesn't either. I've been in that side, too. Uh but our audience is full of leaders. We often don't know what an executive coach is. So, we certainly don't know what the value is, right, that it would provide. So, how do you talk about the work that you do and where do you bring the most value?
Sure. Well, I mean, I started with my own with my own experience as a principal. I thought I was coaching when I was a principal.
Um
I was in schools working with teachers in classrooms, observation, feedback, building instructional skills. Um what I realized through my executive coaching training is I was mostly teaching.
Yep.
Right. I was the expert. I was uh you know imparting the knowledge. I was building skills. Um but that's not really coaching, you know, from a capital C, International Coaching Federation definition of coaching.
Yeah.
What I've realized is there's a difference between helping people build skill and helping people build a competency.
Uh, and so what I was doing was helping teachers build instructional skills. What coaches do, what executive coaches do is they build competencies. And the difference is I would use kind of a metaphor of an iceberg. Above the service we see skills and knowledge, but below the service there are a lot of other um variables into how someone can actually learn a competency. There are our stories we tell oursel about our job. There are core values. There are uh the things that we believe that are getting in our way. Um there are our character traits. All of these things are actually either going to be um variables that support us to learn competency or get in our way. And so coaching exactly what executive coaches do is focus more on what's below the surface than what than skills and knowledge. So, when I'm coaching a leader, um I'm trying to figure out a place where they're hitting their brick wall because what I found is when you're a leader and you've gotten the training and you're hitting a brick wall, it's no longer about your skills and knowledge. It's about something below the surface that's getting in your way. So, an example of that, um performance management, right? I'm in classrooms doing observation, feedback, and debrief and and I can't get my teachers to change their practice if I've been through a lot of training on how to do observation debrief and and and effectively something else is going on. For example, I might be conflict averse and so I might be going in and soft kind of selling sharing the the soft approach and and people may not actually be hearing my feedback because I'm afraid of hurting their feelings. Or I might be going in classrooms and frustrated with what I'm seeing and kind of having implicit bias against the teacher, kind of writing themsel them off in my mind and going into these deb debriefs in a way that are dissonant to the people uh that I'm trying to coach. Uh or I might be going in as a former math teacher and uh debriefing with a an expert ELA teacher and feel like an impostor. Like these are all the things happening below the surface that unless I'm working on them, I'm not going to be able to actually live into the comp icency of the skills that I know. And so as a as an executive coach, uh, I'm working on these things below the surface. Um, and you know, all of us as leaders in schools, we're promoted up the leadership pipeline because we're really good at doing something, right?
When we get to the leadership position, it's actually a whole different set of of competencies. Some of which we're ready to jump into and some of which we're not. And you know, the thing that's so powerful about coaching There's no other kind of professional development that helps you work on the mindsets below the surface that are your obstacles. And so I do that in one-on-one coaching. I do it in cohort training as well. It's impossible to do this in in learning communities.
Yeah.
Um so that's the difference.
Yeah. I think the difference is is key. So as for our listeners to pull on that thread a little bit more is you've got skills the top of the iceberg like I can teach a teacher you know, some classroom management pieces or as a a principal listening, you know, I can show you a few discipline moves, right? We can hack discipline, if you will, right? Go grab the book and get a few of those. But what if we could coach you to see the problem and you had a framework to work out your own solutions with the local people that you have, right? So, that's the competency piece. And I think the best way to learn this, this would why I'm such an advocate for executive coaching. The best way for principles to learn this is you can read a book, but You need to be coached, right? You need to be coached. And I always ask anybody like if I'm going to hire a coach, I ask them who they're coached by because you want a coach who knows coaching and who's values it so much they're paying for a coach, right? I like that model. That's how we learn how to coach, right? Is be coach. And you know, we're going to ask you a bunch of questions, right? I'm sure you've got a whole set of questions. You've got a framework, a methodology we're going to get to in a little bit, but we're walking you through this process so then that principal can then coach their teachers. And one more piece and then I want to transition to to a success story that you have, Matt, is that when you're teaching skills to teachers, you have to teach it those skills to all 25 of them, then you're going to have to teach a new skill to all 25 of them and then a new skill to each and as soon as you leave the room, if a new skill set is needed, they have to come to you versus if you're teaching the competencies of problem solving and collaboration, you can start to build that engine, that flywheel that goes without you. So, Matt, as an executive coach working with school leaders, can you give us a success story so we can kind of put a little more flesh on the bones here and see what it looks like.
Absolutely. Uh I'm thinking of a secondyear principal that I coached recently who was a stellar assistant principal uh was promoted because as a you know doer she everything she did she turned to gold. Incred incredible executive functioning just incredible work ethic and of course she's of course they they they move her up the pipeline. Um the challenge is in the principal seat. Um she was do trying to do all the work
because she believed that um first of all she was good at it. Uh it she was playing to her strengths getting things done. Um she had high standards and sometimes she felt it's easier for me just to do it myself. I'll do it better. And it felt good, you know, it felt really good to to solve the problem. Um and so you know this is where we get below the surface, right? She she had gone through delegation training. She had gotten the skill set in in professional development in books, even in role playing practice, right? Um but she wasn't doing it. And so when in the coaching, my first job is to raise self-awareness. What's going on below the surface that's getting in your way? And so what she realized was um she was telling herself, she believed deeply that um she she uh if she wanted to inspire her leaders and for them confidence in her. She had to work alongside them that she had to be seen working in the trenches and doing that was one story she was telling herself. Another one was um she she wanted people to like her and she didn't want to overburden people. And so if there was a task and she looks to her assistant principal who's working really hard and overworked because aren't we all overworked right in this work?
She didn't want to overburden it. Um she wanted to help people. And the other story that was getting in her way uh was if you know um this is what it means to be a leader essentially. So as we unpacked these stories and realized what the impact was, she realized wait a minute impact of this is I'm I'm not doing my own job and no one else can do my job,
right? There's only one principal. There's, you know, two assistant principles and and four, you know, great team leaders and others like she's the only one that could do the principal job. And when she dropped the ball. It was a it had a huge impact on the team. Uh she also realized um and this was the biggest thing for her because it was connected to her core values. She was doing other people's work and when you do other people's work, you disempower them.
There you go.
As learners, right? So, she was actually disempowering her leaders as learners. She was keeping them from growing and she was making them dependent on her, which was a vicious cycle cuz then if she did assign them work, they'd come back to her to make sure it was okay and they did it okay. And uh so um this new awareness is what it's all about. With this new awareness, she she was motivated to change. And so we went from like what's getting in the way to what are your core values that can anchor you in this context? We call that your standard. What's your standard? And what she realized was uh I I care about developing people and when I do this behavior, I'm doing the opposite of developing people.
Mhm.
So, that was really what this core value and being able to anchor in it was the thing that helped her be able to shift deep-seated habits because, you know, in the the language of emotional intelligence, self-management is when you have internal strategies uh to shift your mindsets, which is a precursor to shifting your behavior. So, she was able to self- coach essentially in the moment to notice the moment when she was about to do do to interrupt that moment, that triggering moment with her. Take a deep breath, step back and self coach and tell herself, "My job is to empower and develop these these people, not to disempower them." And this is the idea of noble story in my work. They want to learn. They want to do this work
because that which is the opposite of the story she was telling herself before. Oh, if I give this this work to them, they're going to suffer. They're not going to like me. No, they want not to do the work. And so that that was the coaching that was the breakthrough for her. It was all internal.
It was becoming aware of the in the mindset obstacles and self-managing to change behavior.
Yeah. And I think that's the power of a coach, right? You come in objectively to look at the situation and say, "Yep, you love your people. Are you leading them the way that you want to lead them?" Right? So you didn't go in and say, "This is the best way to lead people." Right? You really looked at her core values and based on her core values, she needed to change some behaviors, some mindsets and behaviors.
And that's really the what great coaching is. We're not there to teach, right? It's it's folks aren't passive vessels. We're there to surface what they already have. Um we're there to surface their values, their core values, and activate them, their strengths, their core motives because they already have I mean the the belief is they already have what they need. Our job is to facilitate to help them surface it and get there. you know, intrinsic motivation in their locus of control. And and that's what I was excited to talk to you, Ryan, about project-based learning. Like, it's the same thing, right? This in a way, what we're doing is what I'm doing is activating a leader's ability to be the head learning.
Yep. Yeah. We think great learning in the classroom is great learning in the in the front office, right? So,
Right.
It's great learning. So, you've got a five square method, which you is what you call your coaching process. And we know that there's research around as coaches and if there's any coaches listening, you need some kind of methodology. You need some kind of structure to lead people through. Um, so we'll link yours in the show notes so people can see it. But can you give us kind of a quick overview and and why do you use this structure?
Absolutely. You know, emotional intelligence, EI, has become my Uber model of the way I I see leadership, honestly, the way I see life. And the reason is it's so simple. It's EI is four dimensions. If you if you Imagine a a a square with four squares in it. Self-awareness, self-management, social awareness, relationship management. You know, that's that's emotional intelligence from the the framework of Daniel Gleman, who's one of the the pre-minent scholars in the field. Um and so this is my kind of Uber model for a few reasons. One, um 70 5% of leadership according to this model happens inside of us. before we ever engage anybody. You know, I used to teach a difficult conversations, you know, crucial conversations, professional development before I I learned about EI, I'd go in that folks would read the book Crucial Conversations. Great book, by the way. I'd go in with sentence starters and role plays and I'd go in and model what it looked like to have a difficult conversation effectively. People would practice with a case study. The problem with that session through the lens of emotional intelligence is it's all about relationship. management, it's all about the moves. But really, when you're going into a crucial conversation, if for example, you are conflict averse, you're never going to have the crucial conversation. You could read the book, you could know all of the strategies. And so, self-awareness is the first thing. I need to know what my my standard, what my core values are in this virtual conversation. I need to know what my stuff is that's going to get in my way, like my self many mindsets for example of being conflict averse and I need to self-manage my stuff before I even engage not only that before I even actually turn my my gaze on to the other person I need to be in I need to hold up the mirror then I can think about social awareness and this is the other thing that was missing from my training in the case study we didn't even know who the other person was it was a you know it was a fake person in real crucial conversations we need to know where other people are We need to be able to take perspective. And so a core competency of emotional intelligent leadership is empathy.
The ability to take perspective. And that starts with listening, which you know is in my experience the most underutilized leadership tools in the sector, right? Listening to understand where people are, not just in the issue, but below the surface. What do they care about? Where are their values? What are their fears and hopes and dreams? and what's going on in our relationship that we need to know where people are before we can determine how to engage them because where they are should dictate the strategies we we choose to use to be able to get to our goals. So this is why emotional intelligence is my Uber model. We've added a fifth square, the five square uh and that's core values. We've pulled that out of self self-awareness because it's so important. I mean I found an adaptive challenge people, leadership situations, it's so easy to lose our compass and the ultimate muscle is to be able to know in the moment what is my core value in this context. That's my superpower. And so that that's the fifth uh square we've created. And so um that's you know that's that's the Uber model for me and that's what what drives that's the lens I bring to the one-on-one coaching to the cohort learning to every adaptive leadership problem. Yeah, I love that you've got a model. I love it goes through the EI lens and you you've customized it. One piece I want to bring out is just this idea you emphasize on listening as well, which is why leaders that are listening now, like you you're listening to the podcast, but it's one way, right? You you don't get to ask us questions in any way. So, but when you're coached, if you have a good coach, they're listening 70% of the time, right? And bringing you questions and and so then you're that means you're talking 70% of the time. So, it's as a coach coach, a new coach. I know when I was new, it was like, "Is this awkward? Like, I'm not saying anything right now. I'm asking a question, just waiting. Am I doing my job?" And it's like, 100% you are, because then the person you're coaching has to process. And I just think it's so helpful to be coached, to feel that, and to feel the the positive outcomes of that. And so, the the bottom line, the thesis is going to be get coached. Get an executive coach. It's worth it.
Um, but while I've got you on the podcast, Matt, I want to I want to pick your brain because you're working with leaders across the country, working with a lot of leaders. Um, so as people are listening and they're going to say, "Hey, I could be an expert in one thing right now to lead my school." I'm going to give you four options to choose from. And you can mold this however you want really, but where would you want a principal to be an expert in? Discipline, leadership, curriculum, or instruction. Where would you pick expertise for them?
I'm gonna mold I'm gonna cheat a little bit, Ryan.
Yeah, that's fair. Go ahead.
And I'm gonna uh say that I think the most important set of competencies for a school leader especially is to be the learning leader.
Okay.
And by that I mean they the per to see their job as creating the conditions for learning.
Yeah.
Not just for children but for adults, for everybody. Um and to me that means you know Carol Dwek's concept of growth mindset um kind of normaliz izing struggle and failure uh and centering effort and resilience and adaptability rather than success and outcomes. Uh it means um understanding the value of relational trust and taking that concept even deeper belonging for folks to be able to to be in a learning stance. Um and and to do that being good at balancing challenge and care. A challenge is required for learning but so is care. And by care I don't I don't mean making people feel good. That's the misconception. What I really mean is uh investment in and belief in like what what great teachers do right no matter who the student is. I'm invested in you and I believe you can learn and um and and you know the learning leader is is the person who actually walks the walk of leadership. or learning sorry walks the walk of learning. So I think that if I were to say a school leader needs to be an expert on one thing and needs to be an expert on learning like doing walking the walk of learning being the head learner. Um and you know there are so many obstacles to that in school leadership, right? Overwhelm, burnout, all of the reactive challenges like the the you know culture wars, all of the things that come into schools are obstacles for leaders to be able to do this. And and I see my coaching as helping leaders build the internal capacity, boundaries and core mindsets through the fell practice of being a learner in coaching to your point uh of being the the head learner.
Yeah. I love I love the one piece I would add to that as you're the lead learner, you also don't have to be the expert in everything. I think that's another place where principles get tripped up is I have been expert in in math and language arts and science and uh so I like where you took us on that question. That was great. So we talk a lot about on the podcast with our leaders, you know, I believe that one of the jobs of the leader is to put the vision out there, right? Like we all want to be a part of something bigger than ourselves. We need somebody to step out and say, "Hey, here's where we could be as a school, as a team." So if we've got principles that are listening and they've heard me talk a lot about vision, where do you think that principles need to start as they start to bring, you know, a vision to their school. They they might be new principal, they might not be. They might just say, "Hey, it's time for a change here. How do they start with launching a vision? I I'll name two things." And the first is connection to core values.
Yeah. Yeah. Uh a lot of times our vision is heavily influenced by our organizations and by our bosses and pressures from outside that actually make our vision, not our vision. Uh, and so how do we really make sure it's ours and authentic? And so a deep I almost feel like saying get out of the school, go find a log cabin somewhere in the woods and get let just all all the noise aside, how does this vision connect to your core values as a human being and as a learner? So that's one place I'd say. And the second is um this can't just be your vision. It has to be your team's vision. And so for to actually implement it, I think the first step after sharing my vision is to stop and listen. What how does this connect to your vision? How can we how can we take this and make it ours? My biggest mistakes as a principal were always around coming in and putting my vision out there and this is what we're going to do, which you know causes fear and resentment and resistance a lot of times. Um my biggest successes have been um coming in saying here's I'm really excited about what are you really excited about and how can we how can we make put those together and build something together.
Yeah.
You know there's this idea of adaptive change and and this is from uh this great uh thinker hyitz ron hifitz Um and the idea is an adaptive change the people going through the change have to be part of the solution. This can't be something that's imposed by a leader. And you know implementing a vision as adaptive change.
Yeah. Super good. Super good. I love that. Love the two directions that you took. And I as a as a coach I love hearing your coaching wording. Right. You're like I'll name two things. There are a lot of things. I'm going to bring these two out and just kind of name them so we can talk about them.
Uh super good. So core values principles like figure out what your c core values are like individually and as a school right and then invite people into that vision and I think one stumbling block I think that principles think that nobody's going to want to be a part of their vision but we all get into education for roughly the same reasons right there may be a few different sparks at the beginning but we want kids to have more opportunities than they would have otherwise right we want our learners to excel um so we want those things you know how do we name those how do we invite people in super good
right
Matt there is
and it's it's about core values again it's their you know connecting to their core values their core aspirations and why they're doing the work so yeah
principles and leaders who are worried about that I would my my advice is go to the basics of values what do you care about why do you care about it
at the bottom of that pyramid
internally and interpersonally
yeah
yeah at the bottom of that pyramid we agree right the things that we're trying do for kids
and then we're figuring out how do we get there. Okay. Well, let's collaborate and figure out how we get there.
It's good.
So, there I've got one more question for you and then I want you to to tell people about your book and URLs and how they can they can get more information from you. But where do you see when you are talking to leaders and you're looking at the school landscape certainly there's some some hurdles ahead of us of course there always are. But where do you see opportunity in the future? Where do you think the opportunities are going to be?
I think this is a time given the the kinds of challenges we're we're dealing with in education um where the social emotional conditions for learning are at risk. Um I think that you can connect this to the student attendance challenges across the sector and also to the the talent emergency teacher attrition leader attrition. Um so I think the biggest opportunity right now is to shift our mindset away from shortterm we've got to fix things now to long-term how do we keep great people in schools growing because teachers and leaders get better and better the longer they're in their role.
Sure.
So I think the opportunity is creating the conditions for learning for adults so that they stay in the work and and the conditions for results adults adults want to feel connect connected to each other, to their leadership. They want to feel like they're part of a of a purpose and mission. It's just built into our work, right?
And then they want to feel like they're growing. And so I think the opportunity is for principal to focus on that those three things. Um, and I think the rest of going to take care of itself. There's this idea in in the emotional intelligence space that emot uh emotions are contagious, right? We have these mirror neurons that dance with each other literally when we're we're in front of each other
and So if adults are not learners, kids are going to struggle to learn.
So if we as principles can create these conditions and get uh get adults into the learner mindset and in walking that walk, the emotional contagion of that is really the the foundation for for learning for kids.
Yeah. Our common friend Gabrielle, who's been on the the podcast as well, she gave me that word attunement from her psychology background, right? That And I I'm I don't know if addicted is the right word, but I I can't get off the study of it because I it's so spot-on of like when a teacher believes that amazing things are going to happen this year, students are allowed to believe that amazing things are going to happen this year.
And the opposite's true of like, h it's going to be a tough year,
it is because you just told 125 kids that it's going to be a tough year
and that Yeah, it's so good. That's another good term I'll connect to that. Emotions are contagious. That's good. Yeah. Where else can people connect with you? Give us the URLs. We'll put them in the show notes, but give us the URLs, the books. Where's a good place to start?
Absolutely. Um, my website is Noble Story Group. That's N O BL E Noblestorygroup.com. Lots of resources, free resources on that site if you're interested in learning more. Um, I am on LinkedIn, Matt Taylor. We also have or Matthew Taylor. We've got Noble Story Group also on LinkedIn. Um, lots of resources there. Um, we have a, you know, if if you're interested in experiencing this a little bit, I would point you to our EI mindset self assessment that you can find online. You can find it on the website. Um, also Ryan's going to put a link in, but this this will um ask you some questions and then you'll get a report on here's some things that might be getting in your way. Here's some core values that might be be an opportunity and and you get a a self- coaching report with that. Um, so that's a free resource. My book, as Ryan mentioned, uh, The Noble School Leader, it's on Amazon. Um, it's really written as a self-guided coaching journey for school leaders. Uh, and so if you don't want to pay for a coach and you're willing to do the work yourself, that book is for you. Um,
I frame it just a little bit differently that if they see even a little bit of value in the self coaching, of the book. That's your cue to jump into real coaching with Matt, right? Like if you get some value out of that, like just think if you were s literally sitting there with him,
right, via Zoom and and being coached through. So I love that you gave that value, Matt. And then I think the next step is, hey, if you got value, even a little bit, you're going to get a hundred times that at least by by coaching in person.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Because that coach is going to be with you in your day-to-day practice. It's about at bats, you know, shifting shifting deep behaviors is about focus and practice over time. And that's really what the beauty of coaching is.
Yep. And I'm going to get one more plug for coaching. I've got one last question for you, Matt, is that if if you are coaching with somebody and it's not awesome, you have the wrong coach. It's not coaching. I guarantee it. Right. So, Michael Jordan had multiple coaches. John Maxwell has a coach. Like, you think of a big leader, Fortune50 companies, they've all got coaches. They have performance coaches. You are a high-flying leader and you need a coach. So, if your coach is not performing, if you're not getting the results that we're talking about, you need a different coach. You don't need to stop coaching.
Absolutely.
All right, Matt. Last thing. Imagine that you're in front of a room full of teachers and principles who are pouring their hearts and souls on their work every day. They truly desire the best outcomes and opportunities for their learners. What parting advice do you have for them to help them on their PBL journey?
And I am in front of those folks, Senator regular basis. That's right. And you know,
