Welcome to the PBL Simplified podcast for administrators brought to you by Magnify Learning, your customized PBL partner. From over a decade of experience with you in the trenches, we are bringing you this top rated educational podcast designed for visionary school administrators seeking to transform their schools with project-based learning. Launch your vision, live your why, and lead inspired. Here's your host, Ryan Steuer. Welcome to the PBL Simplified podcast. Movement makers, you are in the right place. If you are trying to transform your school in a way that brings brand new student ownership to your school, that it empowers your teachers as well. The thing you also need to know is that it's not always an easy path, right? If you are working weekends, if you're working long nights, we've got a better way. We've got a plan, in fact. So, if you go to whatispbl.com, go to whatispbl.com, we've got a free download for you as an administrator to get your vision down on paper to simplify your life and to make this work valuable for you and for your family. Today on the podcast, we've got a leadership guest. And Jeff is in the same the same lane of what I was just talking about just now. So Jeff Patterson has been practicing martial arts for the past 36 years. He's learned from highly skilled masters from seven countries, achieved a black belt equivalency in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, is Krema, M Thai, Kenpo, Tai Chi, and Ki Jang. And with all of that, and I've had another martial arts guest on as well. I'm not actually trying to get you to join martial arts in this one necessarily, but Jeff firmly believes that meditative arts and their power to enhance overall life experiences. So, he's going to talk to us about kind of some meditation, and I'm going to let him go wherever he wants, but I know that we've got high-flying leaders listening, high stress positions, uh, very visual positions, which brings a lot of stress and sometimes loneliness and we need to deal with that so that we can be leading 10 years from now. I don't want you to burn out. So Jeff, thanks for coming on the podcast today. Thanks for talking to our leaders. I appreciate you being here.
Hey, thank you very much for having me.
Well, Jeeoff, our guests get the exact same first question every time, so you're going to get it as well. And that is, what is your why for your work?
You know, I was brought to the meditative arts in a bit of a roundabout way in that As a young guy, I was very much into western boxing. I love the thrill of it, the challenge, the sport and everything about it. And you know, I I used to go to this boxing gym where um there was a coach there who was a very well-known coach. He had created champions in amateur and professional arena. He had a full card though and he wasn't taking on any new fighters or students. And so I really wanted to train with him. So I would always show up at the gym when I knew he was going to be there and try to get him to kind of notice me a little bit so he'd spend some time with me. Well, after about three or four months of starting to train with him, he finally started giving me some tips and pointers and he said something to me at about the two to three week mark of getting to work with him that changed my life forever and that he said, "You know, if you really want to be a good boxer, you should start doing meditation and taichi. Now, at the time, I'm this 19-year-old kid thinking Tai Chichi for old people in the park, and how's that going to help me be a better fighter? I had a lot of respect for the guy. I started taking on the practice. And not only has it changed my life in many ways through the years, I've had over 36,000 students come through the academy and I've seen literally hundreds of people have their lives transformed by integrating meditation into their life and by hearing all of these stories and reinforcements of the practice. That's what's really given me the motivation to write my last couple books and to create my online programs and my teacher training programs and really just try to get this message out there because I truly believe that it's such a a strong benefit and can help us in so many different ways.
That's perfect. I love that intro because you came to meditation through boxing, right? Like one of the toughest sports you can imagine, right? Because I know I've got leaders that are listening And hopefully you stayed long enough into the program to get that you should be here. I've got high-flying principles say, "I got this. I know it's hard, but I'm going to push through it to do this work." So, we've got these high-flying principles listening. Stress, pressure, off the charts for most people. A lot of our folks can deal with it. But why should they be meditating? Why should that be one of their practices?
You know, I think that meditation, it gets downplayed a lot because a lot of people think, oh, you're sitting and being quiet. But when I look at the meditative arts, I'm not talking about just a sitting meditation. I'm talking about learning how to build an evolving life practice with the meditative arts that affects everything you do. And within any kind of meditation practice, whether it's a movement practice like Tai Chi or Chiong or yoga or walking meditation, or it's a still meditation practice like a sitting practice or a form of breath work or standing meditation. They all have these fundamental underlying principles that are the foundation of any life practice with the meditative arts. And I call these the five regulations. They are regulating the body, regulating the breath, regulating the mind, regulating the energy, and regulating the spirit. Briefly, I'll kind of describe what all five of these are. So, regulating the body is the idea of paying attention to your skeletal alignment, your muscular tension, and how we move throughout the day. So, for example, if you're sitting down at your computer for 3 or 4 hours and you've been working, you're feeling stressed, you're feeling kind of depleted, you're maybe getting a stiff neck and just feeling drained. And then think about another time when the most important person in your world walks in the room and your body perks up and you feel like you're on top of the world. Well, we're in 100% control of these two different energetic states all of the time. But a lot of the times we get so caught up with not paying attention to how we're holding ourselves and how we're moving the energy through the body that we get stuck in these ruts. And in a little bit of a deeper level in regulating the body, it goes to maintaining some kind of muscular structure in the body, some bit of flexibility, making sure that we're getting healthy nutrients in our uh in our diet. And then also an appropriate amount of sleep. The next regulation is regulating the breath. And regulating the breath is extremely deep topic and it's something that you'll study for the rest of your life if you get into a meditation practice. And in fact, Chiong is often referred to as the science of the breath because there's literally hundreds of different breathing strategies. And because of that, we broadly categorize them into yin methods and yong methods. Yin methods are often deeper, more holistic style of meditations that help to bring that energy inward. And an example of a yin breath would be if you ever listen to somebody sleep, their natural breathing pattern is a longer inhale and a shorter exhale. And this is the body's natural way of bringing our conscious mind into our subconscious mind, which is where we are when we're sleeping and dreaming. And so if we want to emulate this style of energetic expression in our meditation. We can do longer inhales, soft retentions at the end of the inhale to help bring that energy inward, which is great for stress reduction, dealing with anxiety, dealing with panic attacks, improving our creativity. There's lots of ways that we could use this yin side of the breath. Then we have the yong side of the breath, which is more aggressive. It's kind of like if you've ever had to push your car, you pick up something heavy. Your natural instinct is to use the exhale, maybe put tension in the breath, maybe even make the breath audible. And this helps generate energy and expand it outward. Now, when we understand how to use the breath as a strategy, and in Chinese philosophy, they call this balancing the con and lee, we now have the tools to adjust our physical, mental, and emotional states throughout the day. And you know, everybody goes through the day with emotional ups and downs. So, some people are like a roller coaster. Others may be a little more balanced. But when you see and recognize these imbalances and you start to get excited, we can use the yin side of the breath to help bring us back down. And when you start feeling depleted, we can use the yong side to help pick us back up and energize us. And so the breath work is a very essential part of a meditation practice.
And then we have regulating the mind. And again, this is a lifetime practice and something that we'll be working with for as as long as you do a meditation practice. And one of the most common things I hear new people say when they come to the practice uh is that I've I've tried meditation before and it just didn't work for me. I couldn't quiet my mind. You know, somewhere along the way, people got this misguided idea that in order to be benefiting from meditation, you have to be able to quiet your mind and reach this state of nirvana where nothing bothers you. And it couldn't be further from the truth. You know, I've been fortunate enough to travel around the world and train with some amazing teachers all over. And I have never once met anybody who doesn't get distracted. We all get distracted. We're human. That's just the way of life. So, when you change that mindset and realize that this is not a bad thing. So, the idea is when we're meditating, whether it's a movement practice or a still practice,
and we recognize that we're getting distracted. We may do this 50 times in a 20 minute session, but every time we get off balance, we use our posture, our breath, our movement to help bring us back to focus. And now we just got 50 repetitions of how to be in this distracted state and come back to focus. And this is great for helping us kind of maintain that present state of awareness and that little more of a a balanced mental and emotional state throughout the day. You know, there's this story that I really enjoy about these two old monks and they're walking down this dirt road after a huge rainstorm. They come up to this big mud puddle and on the other side of the puddle is this beautiful little girl and she's standing there in a white dress and she's crying and the older monkey hollers across the puddle and says, "Is everything okay? Can we help you?" And she says, "I need to be somewhere, but if I walk across this puddle, I'm going to get my dress all dirty." So, the older monkey rolls up his pant legs and he walks across the puddle, picks her up, puts her on his back, takes her to the other side, drops her off, and lets her be on her way. Well, him and the younger monk are walking a couple miles down the road. And finally, the younger monk is just furious. And he says, "You know, we're not supposed to touch girls, but yet you did back there at the puddle." And the older monk looks down and says, "You're still thinking about that girl? I left her back there at the puddle." And how many times in life do we have to get two miles down the muddy road before we realize we got to let go of this thing? You know, and being able to recognize these imbalances when they first happen gives us the power to make these adjustments before we gain too much negative momentum down any one of these paths. And so, regulating the mind is a very valuable part of the training. Then the fourth regulation is regulating the energy. And regulating the energy is a very deep topic. It's something that we could literally talk for hours about, but just to give you a brief idea of it. Once you have reached a competent level in regulating the body, the breath and the mind, you now have the tools to lead the energy inward in the body to extend it outward or to circulate it through the body to get different outcomes with your meditation practice. And then the fifth and final regulation is regulating the spirit. And this is a very profound idea and it's something that meditation masters will spend their entire life's journey working towards that stage of enlightenment. But as you can see when we start cultivating these underlying foundational principles in any meditation, this that it can affect everything we do in life and make everything easier and flow a lot smoother. Yes. Let me figure out how to where we should go next with that because it sounds like we could study with you for years, right? And get to a certain level. But I want I want to speak to some of our listeners that maybe aren't bought in yet. Can we give them a small example? So here's a real life example. We've got a principal who knows that the next meeting is an angry parent, right? Like a lot of times we our principles look at the calendar. Okay, I just met with teachers. That was great. Oh, angry parents next. They've got seven minutes, right? They've got seven minutes before that meeting. Is there something that we can give them that, you know, regulates one of those five? Um in way that's going to help them show up to this this meeting. They know there's going to be kind of a confrontation. How can And a lot of our principles, they're it's not their first time. They've done this before, but it still takes a toll, right? So, what what would you suggest? Is there some kind of a exercise they can do or what should they go to?
So, yes, I'd like to touch on a couple things with that question because that's kind of a complicated question. So,
fair. Yeah.
So many so many times I've heard people say I'm going to take on meditation because I'm getting panic attacks or I get stressed and when I get stressed I'll go do the meditation.
That's kind of like saying that if I want an apple today cuz I'm hungry this morning I'm going to go plant a seed and so I can have an apple later on.
You have to develop a practice so you start cultivating these foundational principles in your life and then it starts to affect everything we do. And so the first thing I would say is Yes, there are things that principle can do to kind of help train the mind and the body so we don't get in those emotional states, but it's not something that an unexperienced person can go integrate and then go into a stressful environment and then just be successful.
Yeah. You can't show up to like the the the start line of a half marathon without training and said, "Hey,
I'm going to run this. It's going to be great." Right. Kind of the same idea.
Exactly. Exactly. And you know, so So, what I like people to understand is that if they're thinking about taking on a meditation practice or realize that, hey, this has some value here. I see all the evidence. I see all the scientific studies that show that it's worthwhile to do this. I have three things that I like people to consider when they're thinking about taking on the practice. Because as a teacher for over 30 years, the hardest thing for me to do is to get people to see the value in being consistent in in integrating this and having the self-discipline to do this every day so they reap the benefits of the practice. And so that's where I've tried to become creative and find ways to help more people be successful. And what I found is is that these three questions help. And the first one is when you're thinking about doing a meditation practice is thinking about why are you being drawn to that practice? Do you want to stay healthy longer longer in life to watch your grandkids grow up or so you can walk your dog when you're 80 or what is it for you that kind of motivates you in that direction? Or maybe you're dealing with a stress disorder or you're an athlete who wants to improve their performance on the field. Whatever it is for you, find out what that main motivation is and then go a little bit deeper and think about not only what that motivation is, but how your life will change in multiple different ways if you accomplish that and then also flip the coin and think if I don't get this and I'm getting stressed out all the time and then I'm going to continue to get stressed about this and this and this and you're going to have all these negative reasons of why it will affect you as well because this helps give you the motivation to want to do the practice because I don't care who you are and we've all faced this. You want do something positive for yourself and the alarm goes off in the morning and you think ah I'll just do it tomorrow. I'll hit the snooze button. And if you don't have that motivation, it's hard to develop the consistency, which is the second consideration that I want a new student to think about because having a discipline, consistent practice where you do a little bit every day, is how you're watering that seed and how you're really starting to reap the fruit of the the benefits of of planting the seed. And so through that consistency, you develop this discipline, this integrity, this patience and this helps you to not only affect your meditation practice but also everything else you do in life and then the third and final thing is you need to find a guide. Meditation is a very deep practice. I've been studying for 36 years and I'm still just a student learning all the time. It's not one of those things that you can go on to YouTube and watch one of the million videos out there and think that you're going to get any kind of depth in your practice. You know, I've literally seen students come into the academy who have been self-taught and they've spent 15, even 20 years on trying to teach themselves the meditative arts and they'll see a student here who's only been following a guide for 12 months who's deeper into their practice.
You know, and our our lives are short. Your time is valuable and having somebody point you in the right direction will save you a lot of time. And then one more thing I'd like to point out for those of you that are really busy and are thinking, "How am I going to fit meditation into my life? I just got so much going on." Is that what I've seen over and over again is that by integrating meditation into your life, you not only gain time, but you gain focus and the ability to get more done because you're not getting so distracted. And so, you're able to be more laser focused on what you need to do. And you'll find that you're more productive which gives you time to do these practices and integrate these things into your life.
Yeah, that's good. And I think that that last part, Jeff, I think is really important for our audience because our audience is looking for return on investment, right? So they they want to gain time, their productivity hack comes up or a great journal, like they're going to grab that. And I don't think that most of us would argue the idea that meditation is not important and that it wouldn't work. So what is kind of the main objection to meditation is you know I think there's one that I can think of of like I kind of have it in my notes here that you know the principal doesn't want to end up cross-legged on their desk in the middle of the day you know and then somebody walks in oh I was doing my meditation practice you know uh you I think that's maybe what people see in their mind like they're going to have to you know go up on this mountain kind of thing but but like are those valid because I think the things you listed right are are our leaders want to they want to have longevity they want to do this work for a long time We're not solving generational poverty or the issues of education tomorrow. So we, you know, we we need leaders to be there a long time. They're disciplined folks. People are listening. We have discipline, right? They understand the idea of a guide. You a lot of them are in a mastermind with us or they're doing coaching. Uh but sometimes coaching is tough too because you as uh professionals in the workplace, we don't have coaches, right? That's for basketball players, right? And but you started off saying, you know, boxers, they do meditation. So what's this gap that's here? There's some kind of an objection I think for you know our leaders like how do we get them past this? Is it a time thing you think? Like how much time does it take to start a practice?
You know I think there's a couple things. I think one you hit the time thing nail on the head in that I think a lot of people think they don't have the time. I think other people think that it's difficult. They don't know how to do it or they don't know how to be successful with it or maybe they've tried it and they failed. Uh you know those are both easy to fix in that you know meditation doesn't need to be this thing where you retire to a cave and meditate for the rest of your life. You can get a lot of benefits by doing a 20-minute ritual every day integrating some active practices throughout the day and integrating some philosophical practices. And when I say ritual practice I mean where you set time aside whether it's a sitting practice It's a movement practice like Tai Chi, whatever it is, you shut off your cell phone, you shut off your screens, and you just turn your focus inward. Once we have that, that's kind of the core foundation of our practice, then we integrate active practices, which are great because it makes no sense if you feel all at peace for 20 minutes a day or 30 minutes a day doing your meditation and then the rest of the day you're stressed and worried about everything. And so these active practices are things that you can do in as little as 60 seconds or 2 minutes. And they can be done when you're walking down the street or standing in line at the grocery store. And they're ways for us to kind of start living the practice and making it a way of life and not a hobby that we do once in a while. And it really helps train our physiology and our mental ability to control our emotions. And then lastly, we have the philosophical side of the practice which can be used in our active practices as well as our ritual practice. And when we use these three modalities to build an evolving life practice, you see that it doesn't take hours every day to cultivate a practice. What it takes is just being consistent. And through the years, you know, I've said I've had many students come through the academy and the ones that listen and the ones that do their 20 minutes a day or more and integrate active practices into their day. If they can keep that up for a year, they'll do this practice for the rest of their life because they'll see so many benefits from the practice that they they'd be silly to stop, you know. And one of the things that I that I notice with these people is that when they start, they always look at it like a chore. Oh, I I got to do my meditation today.
But when they start seeing the benefits, their mind shifts and they start looking at it like this is something I get to do and they get excited about it. And when that happens, it's it's done from that point forward cuz it's just part of their DNA and part of the way they're going to live the rest of their life.
So, let's let's go there. Let's say that, you know, I'm I'm a principal who's let's say they've even gone through your academy. So, they've got a consistent practice. Can you kind of paint the picture now? Can we go back to the angry parent thing and can we can we paint that picture now? Like, I've had a practice. I've watered the seed, if you will. Well, and I've got 7 minutes before I know I'm going to have, you know, a confrontational conversation. What would I do at that point? Kind of an active practice. Is that fair to say? Like what would we do?
Yeah. So, I'd like to touch on a couple things back on that. So, so the first thing is is yeah, by having this practice, we're able to be more balanced and more focused. And when we get emotional, we don't often respond very much in an educated manner. A lot of times we'll say things that we don't want to say. A and so being able to keep that focus is key and that comes with developing this practice. The other thing kind of steers off into some of the philosophical training of the meditative arts. And the first thing that comes to mind is understanding a concept called yielding. And actually my last book called the yielding warrior talks about this concept.
And I think it'll help with what you're asking here. And so with yielding there's three different directions of yielding. There's physical yielding, mental yielding, and emotional yielding. Physical yielding is the idea that I, you push me, whoever's the bigger, stronger person with the most leverage eventually is going to push the other person over. But with yielding, instead of us trying to see who the bigger meathead is, when you push me, I get out of the way of that force, and now I can respond with less effort. So, I'm not trying to butt heads with you and see if I'm bigger and stronger than you. Now, in order to be good, physical yielding a lot of things have to come into play. You need to be well rooted. The lower part of your body needs to be strong and flexible so we can change our central equilibrium without getting tight. The body has to be relaxed. The breath has to be calm and the mind has to be present. Now, while it may be a lifetime journey to really master these skills, from day one, we start to develop a heightened awareness by integrating meditation practices into our life. And we start seeing these things more clearly inside ourselves. But here's where it becomes interesting because we also start to see these things more clearly in other people. And now we're kind of moving into your question. So if you and I are having a conversation and now this is going into mental yielding and I say something that unsettles you and I pick up on it right from that first imbalance, it's a lot easier to adjust the conversation and lead it to our harmonious place, then if I'm not paying attention to that, and pretty soon I'm so far off track, you want to knock me upside the head. And so, learning how to use yielding in all of our interactions is extremely powerful. One, we're being more considerate, which is something that we could all do more of. And two, it allows us to be strategic in our interactions so we can lead these conversations to the outcome we want to see. And this is great in relationships, in business, and sales and negotiations. I mean, there's so many different ways that we can apply this skill. And then lastly, we have emotional yielding. And emotional yielding is very much like mental yielding, but it's with our own interpersonal conflicts. So, you think about when something happens to us, we often respond and we go down this path and we might get an hour, day, week down that road and realize maybe that wasn't the best choice. But with yielding, if we could have taken a step back and been more present and less emotional. Often times we can get a better grasp on what's going on and make a more educated decision that leads to a lot less heartache on the other side. And you know, I've been talking about this idea of yielding now for many years. It's something I'm very passionate about. And many times when I start explaining this to people, I'll hear them say, "Ah, that makes a lot of sense. In fact, I use yielding all the time." Well, I would agree in that But I think everybody does some degree of yielding all the time. However,
I want to interrupt kind of like,
yeah,
I just want to interrupt because I think I had that exact thought. I think I had that exact thought. I was like, I I I bet our listeners because because we do that, right? Like I can I know our listeners are thinking, you know,
I keep my emotions in check, right? I don't get out of control, you know, as I'm listening to this angry parent because most of them are doing it pretty well, right? Or or they're not where they're where they're at right now. Like you don't get to the the position that our listeners at if if you you know kind of spiral out of control. So I literally had that same thought like oh yeah we do that. So so go there like bust that for us. This is good.
So so so I like that you said that because I think you'll really resonate with this next part in that if you if you or I were to walk into a crime scene with a detective who's been on the job for 30 years, I guarantee you that person would see things about the series of events in the timeline that I know at least I would have no clue of. And by integrating meditation into your life, I guarantee you, you're going to see things in a finer detail and more in tune with yourself and with other people that I don't care how in touch you are with communication that I feel like you will never experience without having this kind of a practice in your life. And while yes, I totally agree somebody who's good in certain areas can get to a high level, but it's the same reason why you get a professional athlete like you know when Phil Jackson was coaching the Chicago Bulls and the LA Lakers here you got the basketball players in the world and he was having them do meditation to improve their performance on the field. There's no reason why professional or principles can't use meditation to improve their performance when they're communicating with people because it will give them that extra few percent and that's where all the gold's at because anybody can get to 85% of their ability, but to get to 90%, 95%, 97%, you know, now you're kind of talking about those people that almost seem magical a little bit in their field. And I think that meditative arts are one of those things that can help you get to those levels that most people will never see.
Yeah. See, that's great. I I like where we got to right there because, you know, that's kind of a good to great type piece, right? And that's, you know, maybe you're good on keeping the mental, emotional piece in this, you know, kind of angry parent scenario that I've thrown out there for us. Uh, but what if you were excellent? What if it didn't budge you at all and you can move on to the next meeting and you didn't lose the first five minutes in, you know, your past thoughts or those kind of things? What if you could be the best? And I think we have to I think we have to I think we have to own up to the idea that, like you said, Phil Jackson had Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, like in these practices, like people that could just pick me up and throw me to the side. Like these are big, strong guys filled with testosterone and like but they see the value in it. Now I think that's one thing that's interesting is like you know you look at Michael Jordan and his story and as he talks about his game like there was nothing that's going to stop him which means if meditation worked he's going to do it and conversely if it doesn't work he's not going to do it and he did so you know so it's I think we have to face that sometimes as leaders. What do you think Jeeoff?
Yeah you know well I like what you said in that it can help you to not carry over into your next meeting or the next five minutes. But what if you really mastered that ability to communicate to where not only did it not lead to distraction for you,
but what if it took that angry parent and led them down a road to less distraction for them? So now when they leave the conversation, they're feeling better than when they came in.
And that's the that's where the real true kind of skill level is at. is when you can use this idea and the communication to lead somebody who's disgruntled down a different path and maybe help them see something a little bit different with some positive light and have both of you leaving the conversation in a in a better place. That's that's some power right there.
Yeah, I like that. I can see our I can see our leaders getting into this meditation piece, Jeeoff, and and then somebody's asking them like, "Hey, what's your secret?" Them just saying, "Ah, you wouldn't believe me. Don't worry about it." Or you or you wouldn't have the discipline to do it. you know, is well, go ahead and tell me. And I would love for them to say meditation at the end of the day, right? And is behind their calm demeanor and the excellence that they have. Give us kind of one more thought before we ask for like how people can connect with the academy and some of your books and those kind of things. What's kind of one one thought you have in your back pocket for our principles and our school leaders on kind of where where meditation should be in their world or just some of your thoughts that you think it could bring
on the what's that?
Give us give us one last thought. Uh of uh like give us leave our leave our listeners with one last thought on meditation and where they should jump in before we I want to give them your resources and we'll have in the show notes but what's kind of one last thought you'd leave them with
I would have them to really consider and spend some time thinking about what are all the reasons and the ways that this could benefit me because if you do that you'll realize that it's well worth your time to do it. And I promise you that if you invest the time into it and you see what's going on that it'll be one of the best decisions you've ever made for yourself. And I'm not saying this kind of because I just have a a personal love for the art. I've seen this over and over again, hundreds of times over through people that decide to make this decision and integrate this stuff into their life. And things from people who have very high-level careers into people who our athletes, people who are dealing with stress disorders or illnesses and using this practice to transform their life. And it does and it works, but it does take some discipline and take some effort from you and you got to have the desire to make it happen. But if you do, it'll be one of the best things you've ever done. So good. Thanks for coming on to to share, Jeeoff. This has been awesome. Where can our listeners find out more? Just give us like the URLs, books, what what would where's a good place to start?
So my website is theyieldingwarrior.com. If you'd like a free copy of my most recent book, you can go to theyieldingwarrior.com/book and we'd be happy to send you out a free copy. You just pay for shipping and handling. And then also on the same website, uh you could get into our online training programs, our teacher training program, and kind of find out more information about that there. And then all of the the normal social channels from the yielding warrior.
Cool. Jeff, thanks so so much for joining us today. Um, I think you gave us a great overview and a great place to start. I think everybody needs to go pick up your book. Thanks for being with us.
Thank you.
All right, PBL Simplified audience leaders, you need to take care of yourself. You've got a ton of different disciplines that
