Speaker 2 (00:00.098)
Welcome to the PBL simplified podcast for administrators.
Brought to you by Magnus.
to learning, your customized PBL partner. Decade of experience with you in the trenches, we are bringing this top rated educational podcast designed for visionary school administrators seeking to transform their schools with project-based learning. Launch your vision, live your why and lead inspired. Here's your host, Ryan Stoyer.
From over a
Speaker 1 (00:29.71)
Welcome to PBL simplified for administrators, the podcast specifically for you building leaders so that you could figure out how is it that you're going to launch your vision of project-based learning? You know it's the right thing, but how do you really implement? How do you have a clear vision for the next three years? We do that by answering your need to know. And today we're going to answer it by bringing on a guest, pretty specific guest actually. Vanessa Myers is senior director of education and workforce development at Interplay Learning.
and they do virtual reality and vocational programs. It's awesome. So I think you're gonna like this episode. Even if you're not in a vocational program, I think the innovative practices here is something that you really need to listen to and kind of see how can you bring that back to your school. So tune in either way. If you are looking to bring PBL into vocational school or your CTE program, or even if you're tangentially connected to the CTE program, we do that a lot with our partners where we go through CTE.
as an inroad to the district. But CTE is a place that's filled with projects, but not always project-based learning. So if you've got a CTE program, we'd love to come in and help train, you know, the master carpenters that are in your building. But sometimes your trainers, your teachers, your leaders are not trained teachers, right? And they have a ton of wisdom, but the teaching practices are something that they could really use a little help with. And what we find is that project-based learning has a system and a structure that's really helpful to
really bring in the engagement to the projects that are already in your CTE program. So you're project rich, but we help bring in the authenticity that really brings engagement to empowerment within a CTE program. So we'd love to connect with you to do some design days and we can hold those at another CTE program or one of our other model sites. And our job there is to help really paint that three year picture to be super clear, to have total confidence in the next three years in bringing PBL to your building.
So Vanessa is gonna come on today and she's gonna talk about virtual reality, 3D simulations. She's got 15 years of experience in ed tech and trades, content sales, strategic partnerships. She's done all of it. Interplays efforts in K-12, also been in higher ed. They've also done apprenticeships, workforce development. Her work has been featured in a ton of different place, Contractor Magazine, Nate Magazine, and she's done some partnerships with Black and Decker. She's awesome. So it's a really good interview.
Speaker 1 (02:54.412)
The VR stuff is pretty amazing what you can do. You can start getting certifications. There are some limitations to it that I didn't know about. So you're to want to tune in for that. I'm going to ask her, how does VR just work in vocational programs? How does it work? Just like even technical, how does this happen? What's the delivery look like? When people are successful with VR, what do they do? And Vanessa walks us through that. She's going to give us a success story.
and some of the obstacles to getting VR into schools. So a virtual reality is something that you wanna bring into your schools. This is a must. This is a must listen for you in this episode, because we're gonna you through it. And even if it's not, I think you need to tune in because there's some innovative practices in here that you're just gonna think through framework wise, as you're bringing whatever the next innovation is for your school, you're wanna be thinking through these ideas. So I hope you enjoy this episode that we do with Vanessa.
Well, hi Vanessa, thanks for being on the show with us. We appreciate your time.
Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Hey Vanessa, you've got some cool experiences to share today and you're doing work in schools, you're doing work in a lot of different places I would say, but we're talking to principals today. Okay. And we always want to know, this is the first question for every guest, what is the why for the work that you do?
Speaker 2 (04:15.916)
Yeah, so I was thinking about this before our conversation. There were two kind of formative and personal events that I thought I'd share. The first one is, so I was a stereotypical straight A student, went to an Ivy League school, thought I was teed up for life, right? I graduated and I had absolutely no job opportunities, It took me probably six months to find a job in Boston.
And what I recognized was that a lot of my peers that had come out of high school and had gone into the trades, into vocations, directly into vocational occupations, and in the military as well, were making three to four times as much as I had, as I was making. I had no problem finding job opportunities. And it was really the first time I recognized that there was a bias in our education system towards these traditional four-year degrees, right?
And us being told, you know, that is the best path to employability and well-paying careers and recognizing that that wasn't the case and it really hit home for me. And the second example that I would share is with my oldest daughter. So she's 14 now. She went through very traditional education system. She was in a Catholic school, which was fantastic in a lot of ways, but she is...
significant in terms of ADHD. She has a 504 and she really struggled. And it was just heartbreaking watching her, right? You know, the teachers would say she's super smart, she's fully capable, but she just couldn't focus. She did not do well on tests. You know, she was failing courses and most heartbreaking was just seeing her have no confidence around, you know, her ability to be successful in school or even just kind of like as a person, it really affected her self-esteem. And we're in Connecticut and Connecticut has a really fantastic
technical high school program. And she was lucky enough to get into one of those schools. And in the first few months, the way they do it is they actually rotate you around through different vocations. So, you know, they do HVAC, automotive, welding, robotics, cosmetology, which is what she was interested in originally. And they have the opportunity to do this hands-on work. And it was such a departure from what she had done all through elementary and middle school. And she loved it.
Speaker 2 (06:32.398)
for the first time, this kid who had struggled all through school and had no confidence and was failing a lot of courses, she's an A student. She has some Bs in there, but she's mostly an A student. She loves going to school. And I think it's because she's doing this hands-on work, right? All of a sudden, all the learning she's doing is applied. It's hands-on work. She's on her feet a lot. And they're balancing that with the more traditional academics, like reading and writing, and even that, and math, and even that is more applied.
And so it really hit home, like literally for me, the importance of us aligning the way we're teaching, the learning methodologies with the learner, right? So in her case, she is always going to be more successful in a program where she can problem solve, she can think creatively, she can use her hands rather than sitting at a desk and trying to read. And so she's really teed up for these, like I think really successful path down these
into the careers that she's looking for, which is something hands-on, but also the learning is setting up for that.
Yeah, awesome. Thanks for sharing those stories. Those are super personal stories and just living out that work. Yeah. It sounds like you were probably a really great traditional student then, right? Like knew how to, you took the, I always say that you took the highlighted words, put them in the right spot so you could get the points, right? Like you knew how to do those things. Maybe on a different, different type of learner, right? Which is fine. mean, our listeners are, you know, these PBL principles that are like, when you say a child is
loving learning, like, boom, that's what we're looking for. Because the rest of it comes, right? Like all the academics, the standardized tests, those kind of things come once we love learning. it sounds like she found her place. And I talked about this in the intro, your work with interplay learning, and you're doing vocational programs, and you're using VR for this, using virtual reality. And when I saw that, I was like, that sounds amazing, right? And it's like, it makes things so accessible. And
Speaker 1 (08:36.15)
I loved in your daughter's story too. It's like this idea of like hands-on learning makes sense for her and for teaching your content knowledge as well, right? It's not just, you know, hands-on, but we can get excited. We can learn things. And when we're working in some form it's hands-on and we're connecting a lot of dots. So I think in project-based learning, while it fits in vocational programs, it fits in a lot of different classrooms. I like bringing the vocational aspect because it is this spectrum of
It is literally hands-on, hands-on all the time, right? Because we're building these things. Now, VR, this count as hands-on and how does this work? Like how do you guys work with vocational programs?
Yeah, it's definitely, it's, are recreating those hands-on scenarios in a virtual environment. So yeah, so we can get some of the examples of that. But I think, you know, going back to what you were saying about, you know, the types of learners and how they learn best and how they take in information, it's from a learner perspective as to how VR works in these vocational programs. Like I spent years at a textbook company and there are a lot of things that these textbook companies are doing right. So, you know, not, not,
criticizing them per se, but I think that the vast majority of learners in these vocational programs, in my case specifically trades, and I've now spent like 15 plus years in trades training and being in these classrooms, they're not readers. They're not like me, you know, who I could have stayed in college and read books forever. That would have been my happy place, right? But they usually are not. They're really good with their hands. And in VR, we can replicate a lot of those activities online. And, you know, so that's very effective for these vocational programs.
When we think about instructional design and VR, and I should clarify, we don't just do VR. We actually do have simulations and we have videos as well. We're pretty attentional about when we use those. If you think about Blooms, for example, the lower levels of skills, so think about identifying a tool, calculating Ohm's law. In that case, video works just fine.
Speaker 2 (10:41.494)
Right. You don't necessarily need a simulation to do that, but simulations are really critical when you need to evaluate, you need to use critical thinking, you need to make decisions. And there was a lot of that in a vocational program. Right. And so VR really lends itself to those kind of, those kinds of activities as well. And then in terms of delivery and the experience, think we're used in a variety of different ways. but it's not, it's not just VR. can be laptops and tablets as well, you know, simulations on there.
And that makes it more flexible in terms of the amount of practice time. So in vocational programs, you need to be spending a lot of time doing this hands-on work and building up those practice hours. And the fact that you can use those simulations in a VR headset, but also at home on a laptop or tablet just makes it super flexible.
It's super neat. I just love it, right? Because I remember there was a room where we doing a school visit and there was just like 30 stations of how to wire an outlet. So they built it out two by fours, know, you can see the back of the wall and that kind of thing. And it's like, yeah, like we need to practice that. Right. And but then what do you do when you go home? It's like, hey, don't practice, right? Do not practice at home on your own outlets. That is not a good idea. But you guys have kind of you kind of hacked that a bit and you've
kind of figured out a way where we can do that homework, right? So what types of schools or programs are most successful with this VR option?
Yeah, well, you brought up a really good point just now about the safety aspect, right? So when we think about the different types, I mean, for the under 18 crew schools, mean, honestly, they're not allowed to work on live electrical equipment, but they still need to learn those skills, right? So I think that there are certain types of programs where we are helping to offset some of the challenges that they're actually having on campus. So for example, you know, these vocational programs are often expensive to run, you know, the equipment, the infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (12:39.118)
So we can help to offset that. Anything where safety is important, like as we were just mentioning, and also where sequence or steps and making decisions in the right order matters, we can help to recreate those scenarios. And I'll just to take a step back for a minute, I think there are some examples that really kind of drive that point home and it has to do with where VR and simulations have been used historically.
So I think when we talk about VR in programs and classrooms, there's still this idea that it's really kind of like cutting edge or even bleeding edge technology. And it's fun, right? It's fun. But what is it's affecting this as a learning tool? But if we go back to 20 plus years ago, it's actually been used in medicine and aviation and the military to great effect.
And if you think about those, so those are also fields where accuracy is really critical. Doing hands-on work in a specific order is really in critical safety, right? And so, and I often use a couple different examples, like for example, when there are cutting edge surgeries are coming up and you're reading about in the news, often the surgeons are using simulations to train for those before they actually do the surgery.
Same with Captain Sully, right? Who did the miracle on the Hudson. He talked lot about how he felt prepared for that scenario and he could do that because he had trained in simulations. So he already had those skills. He already built that muscle memory, right? And that ability to kind of troubleshoot in the moment. So we know that this has been used for decades with and is a really effective learning tool. And I think what we've done is we've actually brought that to trades and vocational training.
But I think that any program that is supporting those kind of employability outcomes is going to really benefit from this.
Speaker 1 (14:39.298)
Yeah. we love those employability outcomes. And I love that you keep kind of thinking through this idea of like, what are the steps that it takes? What's the critical thinking that happens? And you've got to pull that out, putting it into VR so now we can practice it again and again, right? Like what's the difference between a carpenter on the first day and a master carpenter? Well, a whole lot of reps, right? Like there's reps are just a part of that, right? So it's a big deal.
Yeah, and there are constraints around that in vocational programs. So when you think about, for example, if you're working on HVAC system and you have to drain refrigerant, you can only put so many students through on that piece of equipment until you have to do that task. It takes a lot of time to do that. Think about how much more replicable it is if you're able to run 10 or 20 students through that process at the same time online, and you also don't have to pay for the refrigerant.
somebody just a light bulb just went off in their head right there. It's like, yes, I get all my students through it. And I don't have to pay for a ton of refrigerant. Like they can get that experience. That's super neat. So can you give us a success story from one of your learners who's thrived in an engaged classroom like this?
Yeah, one that is probably one that is super accessible. Any of your learners would be able to go and Google it. So I'll share this this instance because they can watch the video. It was actually a video that was done by Metta. It wasn't even done by us and it follows an individual. His name is Josh York. He's actually an instructor and HVAC instructor at Temperature Control Institute in Mississippi, and he also helps out with his father's HVAC business.
but it was kind of a long and winding road to get there. So he was, when he was in high school, his dad was trying to get him out on the job. He had absolutely no interest in being part of the family business, right? And he also, wasn't doing great in school. He wasn't focused. He was getting in trouble. And his dad one day came home and brought a VR headset and brought interplay actually. And now we've been around for a while, you know? So we've been doing this for over 10 years. So this was a while ago, but he said, okay, listen,
Speaker 2 (16:46.894)
You like games, try this. And Josh gives the example. says, it took my gaming experience and it made it a training experience. And it was also fun. And it just kind of opened up his eyes to how he could do the training and actually enjoy the work, right, to get there. And now he's a certified HVAC tech and instructor, and he uses Interplay in his own curriculum.
Nice. That's well, I mean, we've got so many kids that are gaming, right? And as teachers in the classroom, what we'll say is like, oh, there's so many different jobs you can get gaming because they all want to be the two people in these, you know, fancy video chairs playing some video game championship. And it's like, well, what if we could use some of skills in a different place? And it almost sounds like, you know, that's that's Josh's story is like you knew how to game like you knew that portion. But now what if he's actually learning a skill at the same time?
That's exciting stuff. That's fun.
It's really powerful. think that's the direction that it's headed. mean, in general, it seems like the education industry as an industry, you know, it's more and more focused on employability. And you see this in terms of what's coming out of Department of Education and governor initiatives, which is super exciting. And I think I love that example because in that case, we're not just career exploration, we're actually job training. Like there was actually an opportunity through this technology to deliver job training and credentials, which is way more than just, you know, it being a
a cool tool to learn, which is not to knock that we need more of that too, but to actually help people to get the confidence that they need about what they're going to be able to do when they leave the classroom is really powerful.
Speaker 1 (18:27.82)
Yeah, it's a big deal. It's a great success story. what are obstacles? What kind of obstacles do you face as you're bringing VR to schools? Like I'm in, I'm ready to put it in all the schools. Like there's probably some, some hurdles you have.
Yeah, so often when we're talking about VR, we'll get people that are really excited. And the cost has come down a lot on these headsets, right? So people are looking at this and thinking, this is a much more accessible tool than it was in the past, which is great. However, there are constraints that people need to consider. So often I encourage people, let's pump the brakes a little bit and think about this in terms of how you're going to implement. So for example, space constraints. If you're on a VR headset, you probably need about a six by six space.
in order to safely do VR, right? Because you're fully immersed. You don't know what's happening around you. You don't want to bump into something, bump into someone, get in an unsafe situation. So there are space constraints for that. You need to have dedicated spaces. So when folks say, I want to do 30 headsets, that often is not going to work from a space perspective unless those students are able to take it home.
The other thing is just when it comes to quantity is that managing people, multiple people in headset, even if it's just five or 10 people in a headset, even if you know what you're doing, let's say I'm an instructor, that's tough, right? You've got all these people doing things at different times. You don't necessarily know what they're seeing in that moment. So, and that can be a real challenge.
you know, just the learning curve for the students as well as for the instructor. So often we'll say let's start with one or two, you know, or even three and just, you know, build up those skills, make sure you have the space for it. And keep in mind that you can still do those 3D simulations on laptops and tablets as well. So not having VR is just one method of delivery. You can also do those same, it's almost the same experience, right? Not as immersive, but it's it's teaching the same skills on a tablet or a laptop. So that's
Speaker 2 (20:32.032)
That's part of the conversation. The other nice thing about running simulations on laptops and tablets is that students can do it more easily at home, right? To just get those reps like you were saying earlier, That practice time. Devices and also internet connection. So you need to make sure that whatever device you're using is able to actually run these simulations. Most can, by the way. I think the...
the requirements around that have come way down, you know, and by devices, I'm also talking about laptops and tablets and those 3D Sims. Most devices, except for older ones, are able, it doesn't need the same bandwidth, I guess it used to is what I'm trying to say, but you do need a good internet connection, right? If you're still using a dial-up, whatever, it's not gonna work for you.
And then the last thing I would say is just that making sure it's really aligned with learning outcomes and with industry credentials. Otherwise there is the risk that that VR headset is just gonna sit in a corner and be forgotten about and maybe brought out every once in a while to be like a cool tool that students are interested in. But I think if you really integrate into the curriculum and make sure students are spending time in it, practicing those skills, you know what outcomes they're trying to achieve.
and you're helping them to understand how they can prepare for, let's say, industry certifications, I think that's when you're gonna really see true engagement.
Okay, so I feel like you're taking me out of the dream state right now, right? Of all this magical thing, which is good, right? Like, we're kind of getting down to like, how does this actually work? Like when it comes into my classroom, right? I'm in a vocational arena and like, how do we get this to really work? So what, when it does work for somebody, like what's the moment or the idea that gets people to say, oh yeah, I get it. I get it. This seems like a great opportunity. Like I'm in. What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (22:25.292)
Yeah, think that there are a lot of VR providers and STEM providers that are out there doing super cool stuff in biology, STEM. I think those were some of areas that it moved into first. Even history, I've seen some really amazing applications. You're in the moment in various battles and that kind of thing. So there are all sorts of really neat applications. But I think where I see
people finally get it, administrators and instructors finally get it. And where it's perhaps the most impactful from my perspective is when they recognize that we've connected the technology to an experience with, there's authenticity. So these are actually job skills that they are going to use. And then employability going back to those industry credentials, right?
So you are actually, for example, when you're in one of our, let's say you're diagnosing a faulty fan relay motor, if you asked an HVAC tech, is that what that looks like when you're on the job? They would say, yes. That's very cool, right? That's like taking it beyond just being a really like fun and engaging learning tool. And I should also say that for us, the over 50 %
of our customers are actually employers. So that could be everyone from, you know, a mom and pop, HVAC shop to Lowe's, which is a customer for ours. So we are actually helping students to learn the skills that they are going to need when they get on the job site with those employers who are using it to recruit and to onboard and train. So how powerful is that? That you are actually
You're learning through the exact same modality that when you are then hired by let's say, you know, the HVAC company on the street that they're going to use to train you to certify. And it's a tremendous advantage going into the recruitment process, right? The hiring process. If you've gone through that training and you have those industry credentials.
Speaker 1 (24:26.094)
Yeah, it's a big deal. And the vocational jobs that we're talking about these kids getting, they're making good money, right? Like right off the bat. you go join an HVAC company and you're doing really well. And there's enough research and rumors around like we've got a shortage in a lot of these areas. So we can help our learners, which again, if you ask our principals and our teachers, like, what do want for your kids? We want to have the best opportunities possible.
opportunities they haven't seen before so they can have a great life that they want to have. And it's like, these kids can come right out of high school and they're doing really well, but they have to be prepared, right? And this is one way to do that.
Yeah, yeah, there's, there's a tremendous, tremendous shortage in the trades, industry and occupations, which obviously is what I'm closer to, but we know it's for healthcare as well. And I think it's kind of the flip side of us recognizing we put so many kids through these four year schools, like we were talking about the start, and now we need to put more kids into these, these occupations. Like you said, making great money, no debt or minimal debt, right?
apprenticeship programs. There's a lot of funding going into those as well. It's a bi it is bipartisan support. And so I think it's yeah, it's a it's a career path that I hope more students but also more parents and more guidance counselors in schools and more administration at schools are supporting.
Yeah, I think this is a good step in that direction. So Vanessa, when you look at this, where do you see VR being used when we're looking at the future of education?
Speaker 2 (26:00.246)
Yeah, so I think that, I mean, I think there are so many applications and you get probably different answers depending on who you talk to. And I think they're all worth merit and digging into. But I think for us, and it kind of is a continuation of what I was saying earlier around employability. So for example, I recently, was having a conversation with a state department of education and some folks there. And I was asking about simulations and VR being used as an industry recognized credential.
on their state approved list. And we have a lot of employer partners in local community partners that use us. So we checked that box, but I was curious about it as an assessment tool, you know, and how they saw that. And they were saying that they actually saw Sims and VR as a more compelling assessment tool. And so for example, like,
in apprenticeship programs, think about, you know, there's a licensed contractor that is actually watching a student do the work and signing off on that and saying, yes, the student did the work and they did it up to scratch. Similarly, when you consider simulations in VR, there is more and more data tracking so that you as, you know, as an instructor or even as an employer are able to see what are the steps that the student did to complete the job. How satisfactorily did they do that?
So I think it's actually, there's recognition and appreciation that VR can be used to actually provide more qualified individuals to employers and then also to be used as the SIM and VR training to be used as a vetting credentialing tool.
Yeah. Interesting applications. It is awesome. as a thanks for coming on, I really enjoyed this conversation. Where can we find more? We'll put your links to Interplay learning. We'll put them in the show notes and those kind of things. But if somebody is like, wow, I didn't know this existed, like I want more, where should they go?
Speaker 2 (28:01.4)
So interplaylearning.com, which is our site. There's lots of great information about us on there, but also just stories about some of the customers, the schools that we've partnered with and where they found success. And then of course we can be found on LinkedIn, both myself, Vanessa Myers, or our company Interplay Learning.
Awesome. Thank you so much. We got one last question for you. I you to imagine that you're in front of a room full of teachers and principals who are pouring their hearts and souls into their work every day. They truly desire the best outcomes and opportunities for their learners. What is your parting advice for them?
Yeah, so our company motto is better careers, better lives. And that's really what our CEO has anchored on from the start. And I think that the more we can help these students feel prepared with these real world skills and practicing those skills. And I think project-based learning does this better than a lot of other modalities. I think we can make a huge difference to students' confidence, just that they can be successful in the classroom, but also beyond.
Awesome. Vanessa, thanks for coming on today to share a little bit of what you do. We're excited to learn some more from you too. Thanks.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:09.442)
All right, Movement Makers, as you're looking to create future ready learners in your school, this seems like a really good option. It sounds like it's becoming more accessible too. So if you want your learners to get this experience, go to interplaylearning.com and we'll put that in the show notes, of course. But this is something you want to think through yourself and with your leadership team. Where's that vocational setting taking your learners in your current school?
And what does it look like? How can you ramp it up? Thanks for joining us today. Go out and lead inspired.
That's to bring PBL to my school. If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing the show. It only takes two minutes to scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars and select write a review. Then be sure to let us know what was most helpful about that episode. Your review helps the next inspired leader just like you find their why and lead inspired.
