Speaker 1 (00:00.098)
Welcome to the PBL simplified podcast for administrators. Brought to you by Magnify Learning, your customized PBL partner. From over a decade of experience with you in the trenches, we are bringing you this top rated educational podcast designed for visionary school administrators seeking to transform their schools with project-based learning. Launch your vision, live your why, and lead inspired. Here's your host, Ryan Stoyer.
Welcome to PBL simplified podcast for administrators. Here we're talking to leaders, leaders of buildings, leaders of districts.
It's a little bit different than our other podcasts. We've got another one that's specifically for your teachers. So you want to send them in that direction. But here we're talking about leadership. And sometimes you've got a leadership guest like we do today. And we're going to talk kind of pure leadership today, not necessarily school leadership. We'll connect it for you, but you'll make a lot of connections as well. But I want to bring you guests that are pushing you because as our friend John Maxwell says, leadership is the lid. So you are the lid of the work that's going to happen in your building. And we've got to raise that lid to raise the work.
Bye.
If you're new to PBL and you're just jumping in, I want you to go to whatispbl.com, go to whatispbl.com, and there's an administrator section there again. So we've got resources specifically for you because your needs are different than your teacher's needs. So grab that toolkit and you can get started. Today we've got Matt Kutz on the podcast and he's a leadership expert. He's written a ton of books. We're going to talk about his upcoming book, Becoming Epic, which I know is going to resonate with you all. Hey Matt, thanks for being on the podcast with us today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (01:38.352)
Yeah. So you get the first question that everybody gets, you know, when we first start out, because we're in education and in a lot of different arenas, you know, it's personal, it's passionate. And so we always want to start with like, what's the heart? So we want to give people a little bit of your heart. Like, what's the why for the work that you do?
Thanks Ryan, really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:56.268)
Well, that's a good question to start with. The why is inspiration. mean, so I've been an educator for 25 years actually, college, in grad schools and all that. But I remember when I had the opportunity to get into higher education, my thing that drove me then and still drives me now is seeing students
be inspired. Now, we all love the light bulb moments and all that stuff that we all talk about. But there's something I think beyond that light bulb moment. And for me, it's the inspiration. When they get excited about what it is they're learning. And then, of course, in my case with adult learners, seeing how what they're learning actually can work in their job right now tomorrow. And that's just fantastic. In fact, I just received an email
yesterday from one of an alumni former student who just said, Hey, I just heard just read an article you wrote on quit here quitters never win and winners never quit. And she said, man, that reminded me so much of how you were in the classroom. I just made me think of you. really appreciate you and what you've done and blah, blah, blah. And I, I missed those times of just knowing that I can do it feeling like I can do it. And for me, that's, that's so neat.
Yeah, it's good, isn't it? When you, those folks that you're, that we're serving come back and say, that was awesome. Thanks. Right. It's not why we do it, but in a way it is because that's our data, right? Like our data loops sometimes are the qualitative stuff at least like it takes a while. So we'll always take it. That's good. Yeah. I want to start out with your upcoming book, becoming Epic. And we'll put a link in the show notes so people can pre-order. You know, we're on the front end of this excited for it to come out. So becoming Epic.
Tell us a little bit about it. What's it about? Give us a few main points.
Speaker 1 (03:54.286)
So, you know, it's it's kind of, you know, there's of course, there's a story behind every book. This is one of those books. When I finished it, I actually told my wife, I said, this is the book I've always wanted to write. And what was so interesting about it is I never set out to write it. I was actually writing another book at the time. And I was thinking about this acronym that I had been mulling over in my head and I'd use it in a few of my lectures and got some positive responses. But I didn't think about developing it further than that. But Epic is an acronym.
for being excellent, being perceptive, being inspired and being compassionate. And so that to me is what I call the Epic Framework. And I wrote the book, and the subtitle is A Practical Remedy to Mediocrity. And love that. things that I'm excited about is getting people excited about what they're doing, getting people beyond the idea that I just need to do enough to get by.
And nobody ever starts out, at least I don't know anybody, whoever starts out their career, starts out their job, whatever it might be with the intention of doing just enough to get by. We get into whatever we're into to change the world, whether it's teaching, you know, we get into teaching because we want to shape the minds and the thinking and the ideas of the next generation of leaders.
If you're in corporate America, same thing, you get into administration, leadership, management, because you think you can add value, right? And then along the way, the bureaucracy gets to you, the life gets to you, the other stuff gets to you. And pretty soon, if you're not careful and intentional, you fall into that routine of, right, I just got to do enough to get the job done and then, you know, do the other stuff that life demands of me. And so that was kind of what's going on in my mind.
I'm thinking, you know what, we need to, we need to recharge. We need to put some words together here to, help us become and stay epic. So I thought, you know, like I said, it's, it's kind of an acronym I've used before in some of my lectures and things. And, and I thought, you know what, maybe this is a good time to expand on that. So that's, that's what I did. And that's what the book's about. And it's basically divided into four parts, a part on what it takes to be excellent.
Speaker 1 (06:17.79)
What is perception? How do you develop your perceptive capacity and abilities? How to be and stay inspired and then inspire others and then how to be compassionate and then compassionate is a Twofold thing there. It's not only compassion towards other people but compassion for yourself, which is actually pretty difficult
Yeah. And so that's the heart of why I wanted to have you on the podcast is because in some ways you're right. Like we get into this work because we're inspired. We see something in the world that could be changed and we think we could change it. Right. And I think sometimes though, like our leaders on this podcast, like they're high flyers, right? Like they're leading schools that are changing education. They're on the forefront of this work. And sometimes it seems like you're the only one doing this. Right. So I like your book just to
remind us that there's more of us out there that are seeking out excellence and fighting against mediocrity. Can you spend a little more time on the E? Like what does the excellence portion mean when we're looking to become epic?
Yeah, so for me, the idea of excellence, obviously it includes quality, right? I mean, we wanna do things that have quality, but it's more than just being a perfectionist and making sure whatever it is you're doing is right or correct. Obviously it needs to be right or correct, but there's something about excellence to me is like, it's an attitude, it's a spirit, know, the spirit of excellence.
goes into kind of the things that we do. And I spent a lot of time in that first chapter talking about how damaging and dangerous perfectionism is. And I believe it's perfectionism that's the number one enemy of excellence. that might sound counterintuitive at first, but if you really think about it, we miss so much of what could be excellent or good because we want it to be perfect. And I know it's, I can't remember who said it, cause a lot of people have claimed to said it, but
Speaker 1 (08:17.804)
you know, the enemy of great is good, right? And this is, and that's kind of where I kind of, don't ever use that in particular. I do use a John Maxwell quote that you did mention by the way in the book myself. I'm a big John Maxwell fan myself, but yeah, so excellence is about increasing that lid, you know? And if I'm truly excellent, then I'm always trying to improve in some way.
And it's not focusing on perfectionism and how I can get every detail perfect in whatever it is I'm doing. It's what can I do wherever and whatever I'm doing to be better. And it's just the mindset of understanding that you can always do something to be better. One of the things I talk about that frustrates me is the...
The mantra, the axiom, the phrase, you know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And for me, that's always been a problem. You know, and I think for people who model excellence and strive for excellence, I think that's one of the motivating factors behind it, because what that quote really is telling us is that the status quo was okay. And I believe people who are striving for excellence have a problem with the status quo.
And consequently, they're always trying to be better. They're always, they always know that there's an opportunity of for improvement. And here's what's important. I don't mean that for them, for the people around them. Cause a lot of times we're like, yes, I'm the leader. I'm the manager. I'm the administrator. I'm the superintendent. I'm the principal, whatever it might be. And everybody around me can be better except for me, you know, cause I'm at the top. And that's really what I'm getting at. It's the, the personal part of it, the internal internalizing.
the spirit of excellence is no, can you do better? then research I think is pretty clear when you do better, the people around you do better, which exactly what John Maxwell is talking about with the law of the lid. mean, people will only come up to just underneath your capacity and your ability. So if I want the people around me to be better, I have to be better. And so excellence, you approach it that way. And that's how I think of it.
Speaker 2 (10:39.606)
I like where you took us on that because to bring another John into the conversation, I'm a big fan of John Acuff. And when he looks at perfectionism, this is his quote, says, perfectionism is a poison that pretends to be a vitamin.
I love it.
It seems like perfection is a good idea, right? Like it takes us to excellence, but it's really not, right? It becomes the antithesis.
It's absolutely right. It's an enemy of excellence. And because when you think about the perfectionistic mindset, it so focuses your narrow, I mean, focus, I'm sorry, it you to become myopic, you know? And you look at one thing and one thing only. And one of the things that I believe
excellent people do is they have the ability to see a broader picture. They just have more of a panoramic view of all the factors and variables that are contributing to whatever situation they're in. so that we can talk about that brings in ideas of complexity and things like that. But I think it's really interesting that the people who operate at a high level of excellence, who are driven by excellence,
Speaker 1 (11:52.456)
actually see more on the periphery than they do what's right in front of them. And I think that's important because the perfectionist drills down and they become myopic and they look at this one thing and one thing only. And then you start having, for example, ridiculous policies start coming from things like that because you're looking and you're failing to see how everything is interconnected. And somebody who I think operates in the spirit of excellence,
actually has a little bit better ability to see the connections between all the other things that's going on around them and how this decision would affect that decision and that and following decision and they try to do that well. I think that's kind of what excellence is, which then ties directly into perception and what are you perceiving going on around you.
Yeah, and maybe you'll take a moment to go there. Cause for me, it went right to the C, right? Like if I can see around, you know, these problems and things I'm fixing, I also have compassion because I've got time to see the people around me. Right. But maybe you connect that through perception. So how would you kind of connect some of those? Can you do that for us?
Yeah, so when you're talking about being perceptive, again, has to do with first for me, it starts with your internal awareness. And I think that's the biggest weakness many leaders have. And the reason I think that is because the literature, the research says that. when you look at, one of the things executives say, superintendents say, principals say, and I actually do a lot of work.
with school systems actually on an area, a different area called contextual intelligence, which is another book I wrote. But I do a lot of work in that space. And what's interesting is when you ask people in executive positions in any industry, what one of their number one skills is, they'll always say there are, or they, usually say their ability to read people. can just, I can just tell if you're going to make it or not make it and this kind of thing. And
Speaker 1 (13:57.546)
And what's interesting about that is they think of themselves as really intuitive when it comes to reading and discerning people, but then they're the worst at reading and discerning themselves. And when you ask other people about, and you read the research, they'll be like, they're very, very poor at accurately describing how other people perceive them. And so that's a big part of perception.
And, you know, we get a lot of principals, a lot of faculty, a lot of administrators, again, in multiple industries, healthcare in particular, education is huge, but who will, who get to a certain place and they get to a certain place in their career because they've always done the thing, they've done certain things to get there. And they think that those things that got them there are the things that's going to keep them there. I know this is leadership 101 stuff.
But it's so funny to me how often we think I'm going to be the exception to the rule. When I get to that place, I'm not, I'll, I'll be different. And the fact is, and the reality is we're not. And so perception is just the basic reminder to, to look around you and to really be intentional to try to discern and figure out what it is that I'm doing.
that gives the people around me the perception that they have of me. And I think that's huge because every time somebody says something to you that you don't like or you disagree with, or that's like, you know, constructive feedback or constructive criticism, we make an excuse for it.
Immediately. Yeah. Well, you don't know what was going, what was really going on. was having a bad day or that was a one off and those kinds of things. And we dismissed that feedback and that's a, that's a major, perception blunder major because the fact of the matter is even if it was a one off, even if it was not your normal self, you still did something to convey that, perception and to, and to,
Speaker 1 (16:11.628)
legitimize that perception and we have to own that. And if we don't own that, then we're going to fall deeper and deeper into that, our own confirmation bias. And I'm the exception to the rule. And, and we're really not. And then that course then can just really easy to transfer right over to compassion. Cause once you have compassion for yourself, then you can have compassion for others, you know, and I just,
I just read something just the other day that reminded me of myself and it was a real moment for me of, of, you know, I'm, that guy who has never taken a sick day, for example, just one of those things. I actually write about that in my book, becoming epic because, you know, I thought that was a badge of honor and I grew up with my dad. You know, my dad was like, you know, you never take sick days. never do this kind of thing.
you know, it's work ethic is key and that's what excellence is. And I had this false idea of being excellent. And what I found is that I would demand of others what I demanded of myself. And that's not fair, you know, and that's not, that's not compassionate. And, and even if I didn't say it, even if I told other people, no, no, no, go ahead. It's not a problem. You don't need to do this or I get it. But then they see compassion on myself.
then all of a sudden my actions speak louder than my words. And that's a huge, huge thing. And I know that teachers feel that about their principals and superintendents.
They do. Cause well, you know, when we're working with principals and what, one of the things I do when I personally coach principals, I just have a small group that I coach, but we work on, um, hours worked over the weekend, right? Like we just, shrink that, like, you don't need that. Like let's prioritize, let's set some boundaries. Same thing with superintendents kind of have that same conversation. And what usually gets people to actually do it is that, you know, that realization of if you're working weekends, your teachers know that and they're going to work weekends. And if you're working long hours.
Speaker 2 (18:12.386)
They're going to work long hours. No, no, I tell them, I tell them they don't need that. I tell them to get out of there. Now you're, you're setting the expectation with your actions, my friend.
100 % you know, it's that old thing. I mean, I worked with the Dean one time who always had in the bottom of all her email messages. She said, feel free not to reply to my emails, you know, on the weekends and after hours and then I don't expect it. But yet we knew she was and she did because we'd send her something and thinking, she'll answer it on Monday morning and it comes Sunday morning or Saturday evening is like, okay, so wait a second.
you're working too. And so you're telling us we don't have to, but you are, we don't believe you. You're sitting there looking at your emails, then maybe we should be too. And that's a great point. And that actually cuts against the idea of being compassion. And it also dampens inspiration, because the other part of the Epic model then is being inspired. I've become and learned that
inspiration comes in the non-work moments. And what I mean by that is this, so I've mentioned contextual intelligence and I've done workshops about this all over the world. In fact, one of my biggest clients is an organization in Australia of principals and administrators. just ironically enough, and I did their principals leadership summit last year, two years ago in 2023.
And I asked everybody out there, I said, you know, where are you at? And this was an audience, there was four or 500 people in the audience. And I asked, where are you at? And what are you doing when you have your most brilliant and creative ideas? Right. And then I just waited and I just was on the platform on the stage and they're all out there. And I'm like, oh, no, no, I really shout out some answers. Right. And they started shouting out answers and they were their answers were things like, well, I'm I'm in the shower.
Speaker 1 (20:14.696)
I'm on a walk. I'm just mindlessly driving on a routine kind of a thing. And they shout out all these different answers. And there was actually five general themes all had to do with, you know, moderate to mild exercise. Like I said, on a walk, in the shower, doing something like that. And what was interesting is after we were finished with that exercise,
It dawned, didn't plan it ahead of time, but it just dawned on me in that moment. know, nobody in this room said, not even a one-off, not even an outlier, no one said at work, you know, when I'm being paid to solve problems and I'm being paid to be creative, you you don't have creative ideas. You don't have innovative, inspiring ideas when you're at work because you're in a work mindset.
And so this goes back to some of the other stuff that I wrote and they get being inspired and perception relates to contextual intelligence. But this idea of when we store information and when we learn a lesson about life or about work, about leadership, about whatever, we store it in our brains in a context specific file folder. So if I learn something about human nature at work,
It doesn't go in a human nature folder in my brain. It goes in the work folder in my brain. And then when I'm not at work, that would have been really, I mean, just in a social setting where it would be really important to have that lesson available about human nature. It's not available because it's in my work folder. that's why, that's another reason why, you you probably heard the saying, why smart people do dumb things.
The reason smart people do dumb things is because of the way we file the lessons that we learn. We all know not to do the dumb things that we do. It's just that when we do them, we're pulling information from the wrong folder in our brain. And being perceptive relates to that, being inspired relates to that, especially when you're trying to create new ideas and solve a problem and it's getting a bunch of faculty in a room to say, okay, listen,
Speaker 1 (22:33.922)
We've got a particular problem on student outcomes. We've got a particular problem on whatever the problem is we have to fix. Let's order in some pizza. Let's have an all nighter here and let's solve this problem. The chances of that happening are very, very low. The prep of a good solution company are very low because the way that we use our experience and when we solve that problem and we've got all these experts in the room.
they're gonna go to their experiences folder when really the answer is probably in a folder from a memory they had when they were 12 years old at grandma's cottage on vacation in the summer, about how people wanna be treated for example, or what motivates and inspires students. And if we don't allow ourselves to access those folders,
we don't really have something valuable to say. So inspiration kind of is around that. So what do need to do? The bottom line is you need to put yourselves in situations where that inspiration is most likely to happen. It's not a boardroom. It's not a creative planning session. It's in the shower, on a walk, know, something like that.
Yeah. My, my morning walk, I walk every morning, get a couple of miles in with a weighted vest and I've added, you know, my phone, I've got a task list that I can just add to, right. As ideas come. Cause it's been, even in like strength training, right. It's like probably not when I'm doing a bench press, but like in the rest time in between, right. There's like three or four minutes of rest. It's like for a while I was like, wait, that's a good idea. I need to remember that.
That never happens, right? So I finally, like, right? cause sometimes I go to weight training and that kind of thing to get away from my phone and get away from those things. It's like, I needed something to record the ideas that were coming up. Like you said, just like you mentioned, like really in the rest time in between sets, right? It kind of releases and it's like, yeah, that's a great connection.
Speaker 1 (24:37.646)
Yeah, that's exactly what happens. And I do the same thing, by the way. I do a lot of 5Ks and running and stuff like that. And that's my most creative time. When I don't get to do that, I feel like I'm missing something. Because that's when I have my best ideas. And the phenomenon I'm talking about, for example, I just give this illustration is I call it 3D thinking freefall. So 3D thinking is the three dimensions of time, past, present, and future, or what I call
hindsight, insight, and foresight. And I do talk about this in Becoming Epic in the perception section. And so 3D thinking freefall, most of us, let me back up a second. Most of us have a dominant time orientation to how we approach the world. And statistically speaking, most people default to hindsight. We use the past, we use hindsight to inform
you know, our decisions, evaluate our opportunities, et cetera. What happened last time this came up, you know, and if there's not a last time, then we do something called analogical inference and we just find the closest thing to what this thing is. We make it fit and it really doesn't. That's another mistake that reduces inspiration actually. But so anyway, so 3D thinking freefall is getting outside of our preferred box, our preferred time orientation box. So,
So like I said, imagine, so go back to that question of where are you at and what are you doing when you have your most creative, brilliant ideas? Well, I'm in the shower, I'm on a walk, I'm exercising, know, whatever the moderate exercise. You're right in that it doesn't happen during intense exercise. It's only moderate or light exercise. But, but anyway, so that goes on and I ask people, okay, so what are you thinking? So what is going through your mind? What are you thinking when that idea strikes you on the walk in the shower, whatever it is?
And they'll look at me and they'll say nothing. I'm not thinking of anything. And that's completely wrong because a, the brain can't not think of anything. Right. So it's always thinking of something. So they're actually not thinking of nothing. They're thinking of everything. And so I pose this to them. said, is it more like you're all over the place where you're thinking about what happened yesterday, which leads you to
Speaker 1 (27:00.514)
Remember something that happened five years ago, which then triggers something that you have to remember to do tomorrow, which then triggers something about, yeah, I need to change the weight stack that's running for me right now. And there's a log in the road up here. I better make sure I stand over this log so I don't trip. And then that reminds you of a family vacation you had when you were 12, where you did step on the stick and twist your ankle. And they're like, yeah, that's what I'm doing. I'm thinking about nothing but everything. I'm all over. I'm thinking about...
past, present, and future, and that's 3D thinking freefall. What's fascinating about that phenomenon is the creative insight strikes then because I'm pulling more data sources. See, and that's what I mean. When you're going through 3D thinking freefall, all of your folders are open that I was referring to a minute ago, and you're jumping between folders in the past, the present, the future, and you're back and forth and
and you have all your folders open. But when I'm in the boardroom trying to solve this problem, I only have work experience folders open. And so we're just calling from a much smaller sample. But when we have that free fall that I'm talking about, we're pulling ideas and opportunities and insights from a much, much larger sample. And so that's how that works.
Yeah, that's a neat idea. I love that, you know, I can label that now in the morning, right? Like, Hey, this is a 3d freefall, you know, time right here. And, uh, and you've also kind of validated my daydreaming that I've been doing for decades. that's pretty.
Really important. Yeah, it's really more important than we think for sure.
Speaker 2 (28:45.794)
Hey Matt, as we talked about John Maxwell, right, kind of geeked out on that a little bit, but who are some of the other kind of books, resources, mentors that have had a big impact on you and thus likely your book as well?
Yeah. So thanks. So, so I actually read, I read a lot more audible these days than actual reading paper books, but so I'm a big fan of, course we mentioned John Maxwell. I'll just glance over here. I mean, I've got a whole, a whole shelf of John Maxwell books. I really like Nicholas Taleb as well. he wrote a book called anti-fragile and fooled by randomness that I think are really, really, poignant.
Another, another one of my favorite authors is Bob Johanson. He's a futurist. works in DC. He's written books called leadership literacies, leaders make the future, full spectrum thinking. Those are some of the books that he's written. And those are, those are some of my favorites. So anything by Bob Johanson, when he puts something out, I'm getting it. Anything by Nicholas Taleb, when he puts it out, I'm getting it. What else do I got? And,
I'm also a big Michael Fullin fan and he's an educator. I he's in the education space. He's Canadian and he writes a lot about change purely from the perspective of principals and school administrators. So that's a great one to read as well. Anything he puts out.
Yeah, I love it. I love sharing those resources when it's, you know, somebody new that we can go check out from somebody that's thinking and pushing this work. So I've got one more question for you after this, but we'll put a link to pre-order, becoming epic in the show notes, and we'll put a link to your website as well. Is there any other place that we should be looking for you?
Speaker 1 (30:32.328)
people find their is my website. That's the best place to go. I'm a professor at Florida International University. So you could obviously go there and find me through their website as well. But the best place to find out where I'm at, what I'm talking about, what I'm doing is there. I recently just started a Substack page. So really excited about that. So I can give you the link to the Substack page because I do write quite a bit. Okay.
Yeah, happy to share that as well. So one more question for you, and this is kind of a, think it's a unique one, but it really comes from you or another podcast I'd heard you want to think, but how it's how do you manage and develop your future self?
boy.
We can't start the podcast over, right? So we've got leaders that are listening, right? And they're readers, right? They've got podcasts that they listen to. They read broadly, right? It's not just in the education space. I'd be surprised if they hadn't heard of anti-fragile before. And if they haven't, they're going to love it, right? And so as they're looking forward to like, how do I continue to manage and develop my future self or even just think of that idea, right? Cause we're always trying to, you know,
better our current selves, I think, but how do we manage and develop the future self? What's the thought process there?
Speaker 1 (31:47.17)
Yeah, so I actually do an exercise with some of the people that I coach to get us to think that way. We've heard of, you know, what would you tell your younger self, right? Write a letter to your younger self, right? I actually encourage people to write a letter to your future self. You know, what is it that you want to tell your future self not to be afraid to try or do? And I think that's an important little exercise you could do is literally write a letter to your future self based on what you know, because
We all say this, boy, if I'd only known then what I know now, I'd be better. All right. Well, let's think about that and let's apply. Well, what do you know now that could help your future self be better and, and that process that you come from the past to the present. And, and the other thing that I think as really important is, another, another author I'll recommend is Benjamin Hardy. And he writes a lot about this as well, but he, he,
talks about the the personality and how personality does change and I think one of the most important things that we need to do to be a our better future self is understand and one thing to say it but it's another thing to limit and believe it that who I'm going to be six months from now one year from now is not the person that I am now and we just have an incredibly difficult time with that we can
And he called, I forget what he calls it. There is a formal name for it and I apologize. Cause you, didn't, I didn't prepare for this part, but we can look back at our younger self and see how much we've changed from then till now. What we don't do very well is look to our future self and see how much I'm going to change from now until then. And
That's one of those daydream exercises that I think is a fantastic exercise to do. So imagine, you know, who, how, what it's going to take, who, who, who that person is and what it's going to take to get there. I'm, I'm actually teaching a class for some, a group tonight. And one of the exercises I'm going to have them do is, is write your epitaph. Okay. I mean, so you're, it's, it's the end, it's the end of your life and, and your, your
Speaker 1 (34:04.984)
People who love you are getting your headstone engraved. What's going on the headstone? Here lies a man.
Speaker 1 (34:14.37)
And then, so you think about what you want to be and then, okay, if I, I know this is morbid, I apologize, but if I were to go today, would that be true? You know, and those are the kinds of things that I think are really important when we try to think about how do we become our future selves? And those are just some exercises in some ways, but allow yourself the opportunity to think about your future self.
Yeah, that's good. I've had that encouragement from a dream big and that's by Bob golf as well. And it feels vulnerable, right? To look forward like that. So, you know, cause you have to take a chance on yourself. So I love that challenge is kind of our, our final challenge for our listeners. Matt, thanks for coming on today. I really appreciate your time.
Thanks Ryan, I had a great time.
All right, leaders, you just got a great dose of this new book. Go grab it. You can pre-order it right now. We'll put the link in the show notes. It's about becoming epic, avoiding that, like how do get out of mediocrity? And there's momentum, I think, in the world to pull you down to mediocrity, and you can probably feel it. So you need books like this for the inspiration, and just to know that there's people out there that are pushing the envelope just like you are. So go grab that, and we'll see you at our next episode.
Go lead inspired.
Speaker 1 (35:31.758)
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