Welcome to the PBL Simplified podcast for administrators brought to you by Magnify Learning, your customized PBL partner. From over a decade of experience with you in the trenches, we are bringing you this top rated educational podcast designed for visionary school administrators seeking to transform their schools with project-based learning. Launch your vision, live your why, and lead inspired. Here's your host, Ryan Stoyer. All right, PBL Simplified audience. Thanks for joining us today. Uh, it's an awesome day. And today we've got a leadership episode. So, we're going to bring a leader on to talk about joy today. So, if you need a little more joy in your day, make sure you stick around. If it's your first time here, I'd love for you to go to whatisp.com. That's whatispbl.com. You get some free project-based learning resources for you and or your teachers. So, it's a great place to to get started if you're just getting started. And if you are getting started, like this is a great episode to jump into cuz I'm pretty sure you need a little more joy in your day. Like if you're full up and you you I think you could still use some more. In fact, uh at Magny Learning, we've just uh added joy to our core values. So Amy was coming on today and I was like, "Oh, this is perfect." So we've got Amy, who's a principal just like you in the trenches doing the work, but she also does these really cool presentations about joy. And I was like, "Well, wait a minute. You should come and talk to our audience." So Amy, thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for having me. I'm honored. to be here.
Yeah. And I just did so we're both on the East Coast right now and uh I was just at a school visit and joy came up.
Awesome.
Like the the leaders uh I don't know if they used the word though, but you could tell there was joy in their work, right? It was not easy work, right? So a CTE environment in a pretty large district, medium to to large district, and they're crushing it and they they know it. They know it's hard, but you can father's joy like uh so we're we're recording this on Halloween so I did a school visit on Halloween which is interesting right so all the adults were like dressed up right and there was just joy in like the office and the different classrooms and can you start with this isn't we're going off script already um like why is joy so important and then we'll have to come back to your why because that's the first question but why is joy so important in school environments
you know I think um the last five years I've been hard in school environments and people are feeling it whether they are principles, teachers, I think everybody feels it and I think as a blanket statement a lot of us have lost our joy. but joy is the purpose of this work and I think joy is part of our existence as people. So I think it's really important how do we find joy so that we can keep doing this important work because if we lose the joy it's going to be really hard to do this hard work. So the joy helps fuel us on and I think it's important for us as leaders to find ways to find that joy so we can keep going and do great things and do hard things but um find joy despite all of that.
Oh, super good. I'm glad we started there. You're the first guest ever to not answer the why question first, but that was perfect. Right. So, tell us a little bit about yourself, Amy, and then give us your why for being a principal.
Sure. So, I am a principal of a K to 6 school in Litz, Pennsylvania, the coolest small town in America. Um and I am blessed to work with some of the most awesome students and staff around that you'll find. Um I have been a principal. This is about year 11. I was principal in one other district and where I am here. I finished my uh dissertation research about a year and a half ago and it focused on joy and well-being and what uh principles do who experience joy and well-being despite um carrying high levels of stress and demands and hard work. So, you know, it was looking at who are the people that have the highest demands, but who are the people that manage the highest demands and have the highest levels of joy. And it was fascinating um to find that there are a lot of people that are there, but there's also a lot of people who have high demands and are not feeling joy in their work. And I think it aligns with how so many people are are leaving the field and I think that's part of my why in this um my personal mission statement here in my office I have inspire my goal is to inspire others to be better um each day whether it's students staff my own family um and I think this my my hope is to encourage other principles to find um ways to find joy and wellness in this work because principles are the heart of schools we know their second greatest influence under the teacher um so how can we help principles because people are running from the field and you know, we need great leaders and so how can I help and inspire people so that they can do this hard work and feel really good about it and find strategies that work for them.
That's super good. So inspire kind of that John Gordon like legacy word, right? That's a that's a great word to pick. Uh so you mentioned your dissertation. Let's stay there for a minute. Uh so you're you're researching joy in high demand areas like like principal ship. So just give us a maybe a little bit of an overview, but then also like one key practice that came out of that research. Yeah. So, what kind of came out was about 10 different strategies that people can use to find joy. And I'll share some of my favorite ones um since we won't have time for all 10, but there, you know, it's a lot of actually common sense things that when you hear it, you're like, "Oh, yeah. I used to do that or I should do that." Um, but we don't always do that. And I think the key is for principles and leaders to find strategies for joy that work for them. On the list of 10, there's some that I don't prefer and I won't do. And I think it's key that people find the strategies that they like and that work for them and their needs and their demands and stresses in their season of life. Um, so if I was thinking about my top three, um, one of it is practices of gratitude. Uh, Sean Akor is a really awesome guy who, um, talks a lot about, you know, writing down three things every day you're grateful for. I talked to some principles who keep notes in their phone, um, every day when they see something great, they write it down. Um, I've been really intentional about my gratitude practice with my team and showing thanks um, through written notes, different ways. Um, so that's my favorite one is really how am I centering my my mindset around gratitude? even when things are hard and in the good and the ugly, there's always um something to be grateful for. And then another key one I think is important is relationships. So whether it's um family relationships, so with my own family at home, prioritizing that with colleagues, um other administrators, with um the staff in my building or u mentors or connected people that are educators but maybe not in my district, how am I surrounding myself with positive relationships to help sustain me through this um hard work? And then I think the third one that I've really delved into in the last year or so um has been strengthbased leadership. So, how do I use my strengths? Because we know that the happiest and strongest leaders are actually people who know their strengths and use them in their work and have opportunity to do that. So, those are a couple nuggets of my favorite ones.
Yeah, that's super good. And maybe we'll we'll find a way to link to all 10 because I'd love for people to see all of them. And and I love your advice of like I won't do all these. Like I'm I'm gonna pick mine, right? Like it's funny like gratitude's one of mine, right? I do five bullet points every day. Uh, and I think the research was that I saw was like you're like 25% happier, right? If you just do five bullet points. It's like, well, that's doable even on hard days. And it it's interesting. Maybe you can speak into this a little bit because
on hard days I have to make myself do the bullet points. Sometimes it's like, I'm just going to bed. I'm not doing that. Even though it's like 30 seconds or, you know, it's less than five minutes, I'm still like, ah. So, I have to like intentionally make myself do that. Is that part of we're talking about when we're it almost feels like we're grinding towards joy, but I don't I don't know if that's the right terminology.
Yeah. No, I think it is. It's a little bit about mindset, too, right? What is my mindset that I approach is this, oh, I I have to go to work today or I get to go to work today. I think gratitude's both mindset and practice, right? Sometimes it is grinding to get yourself into that routine, but I think after the grind, it it doesn't become such a grind anymore. Um or finding different ways that work for you. Um and if it's not for you, then yeah, you might be one of the people that chooses to go run five miles. That's not me. That's not my strategy, right? But yeah,
um if gratitude isn't the one and it feels like a grind for you, maybe it's not the right um strategy.
Yeah, that's a good point. So, let's let's go into habits then. Like what are three intentional habits or routines that help principles keep their joy?
Yeah, I think an important key piece is boundaries. Um and again, boundaries is a hard one for principles, I think, because we're 247. We've got our phones, people are texting us, they're emailing us, and it's one that in my career I've struggled with um and have been better at different seasons. So, I think finding boundaries that work for you, I have a colleague who was actually part of my study who shared that like we have boundaries on our team that we will not email our team after 8:00 p.m. or before 6:00 a.m. because if the person's receiving that then they're like oh I have to respond and thinking about that so we can schedule send we can do all those things but I have a colleague who really struggles um she prefers to do it at night right and so that was hard for her um and you know talking about like putting your phone down like that is not that stresses her more so that's not something that works for her but she might have other boundaries where she's prioritizing being every sporting event of her own kids or she may um you know have a day that she shuts down and doesn't do you know Saturdays are sacred. I'm not doing my school stuff. Um so again I think it's finding boundaries but again personalizing those boundaries for what works for you.
Yeah. And and I guess I would just encourage folks that that's totally possible even in your life. You just have to find those right. I know I've coached some assistant superintendents into you know find your Saturdays back. Like what can we do to take those out? And yes you still have to have your phone but you don't have to respond to everything. It's funny because then it's kind of a double-edged sword because then I'm like, "Hey, I I need this real quick." Oh, he's not going to answer that. Like, we've already worked on nothing on Saturdays. So, so it is possible even in again high demand
positions like principles, assistant superintendent, superintendent, which is why I love your dissertation.
Super important.
What about uh is this something you take schoolwide? Like personally, we need to dive into this.
You mentioned a little bit about some protection of teachers like I'm not going to email you at night 9 at night because you might feel compelled to respond. So, I'm going to adjust that. What are some other things we can do kind of schoolwide?
I think it's even sharing our boundaries. So, I think about a season when I had had a new baby and I was like, it is my goal that I'm going to be out of here at 4:30 every day, but I shared that goal with my staff. Um, so they knew I was working on that and I was modeling it so that they knew it was okay to set those boundaries, too. And then on those days when I didn't leave school, you know, he was at my door knocking like you're not following your boundaries, you know, go home. So, I think creating that culture of shared boundary communicating is huge. Um, or even giving teachers permission to set boundaries. I was working with a teacher the other week who was like, "I'm not going to spend four hours on my weekend." I was like, "I don't want you to spend four hours on my weekend. How can we plan smarter or how can we do what we need to in our structures um so that we don't, you know, wear ourselves thin?"
Yeah.
Yeah. I think that's a good frame because I've also seen this kind of work the wrong way where it's like, well, I'm working on work life balance, so I'm not doing that.
Well, that's a core component to your job, right, as an assistant princip. Right. So, I like the idea of how can we figure this out and giving people hope that there are ways to do that. We just need to intentionally look at those ideas.
Yeah.
So, you've got an idea in some of your presentations that uh you know joy is my responsibility and my intentionality.
So, how do you frame that idea? Like how do you help leaders who might feel stuck uh work through that? How do they find like joy is my responsibility and my intentionality?
I love the idea of micro steps. What is one thing I can do to make a shift, right? I don't need to, you know, to it might be overwhelming to set all new boundaries and set a gratitude routine and try and exercise and pack healthy lunches. It can be a lot. So, what is one thing I can do? Um, you know, I think there are obviously some things with structures in school leadership. We need to continue to advocate for um enough staffing and how we delegate roles and how government oversees schools, all those things. I can't control that and I can't I can speak into that, but that that system changes my attitude. I can control what I do to respond and how I'm feeling. Um, So, I think it comes down to what is that next little micro step. Um, Ariana Huffington talks about micro steps and I love her concepts. You know, she was like for one night, put your phone in another room when you sleep and then maybe you can make it tonight, too. Some of those things like that may feel overwhelming, but just try it one time and see how that next step is for you. And I love that concept.
How about celebrating wins? That's that's one of my favorites. You know, do you have any like kind of loweffort, high impact ways to elevate those small celebrations?
Uh, at our school, we have a really big culture of celebrating wins and um it's one of the things I'm really proud of. So, we have a bell in the office that when kids meet a goal, they come down and anyone who's there stops everything. We dance, we cheer, and they just ring this bell. Today, a kiddo came down because she met a fluency goal. There's another time a kid has come because they met a behavior goal. It's customized to them, but the people who are around celebrate them, and I think that's a huge piece. Um we do some other things where we recognize kids through students of the month and through red slips that they take home, signing their name. Um so, having that culture is huge. One thing we started this year which I love is um our we are the bees at our school. So we have a we made a plastic bee mascot that's inflatable and each week staff recognizes each other. Um so the person who has Bonnie the bee that week writes something that we read about their colleague on the announcements on Fridays and then that person gets Bonnie for the week and they pick someone else to highlight and it's been cool I think because the adults feel great but the kids get to hear us recognizing the greatness in each other. Um so I think it's kind of doubly powerful in that way. Um as well.
Well, it's a fun structure and again I asked for like loweffort, high impact and like that's pretty solid, right? Like here's this bee we're going to pass around and once it's started it's just a thing, right? Like it doesn't take a ton of intervention on your part as the leader, right? And it does have a big impact because now we're one of our I don't know if you'd say it's I think it is a core culture for you guys that we're celebrating others which is a big deal. So that's happening in other places too.
Yeah.
Super good.
We even start our meetings too. I was thinking you know we start meeting, whether it's a data team meeting or with celebrations, what is good that we can acknowledge before we move into the tough stuff or the things that aren't going well that we need to fix. Take a minute and just like what is good? Um because there's a lot that we can find and we don't always take time to stop and talk about it.
Well, and I can tell that you're you're kind of steeped in um this positive psychology piece, you know, some John Gordon stuff. I can hear in your language, right? Like even just the idea of asking what is good, right? Instead of how's it going, right? Just just let's start there.
And can we go there a little bit like we mentioned like some micro steps. Um I mean maybe it's books to read, resources, like how does somebody really kind of dive in if they're like, "Yep, I want more joy. I want to lead with joy." How do they get to where you're at? Like a lot of this sounds like it's second nature for you. Like why wouldn't you do some of these things? And I can tell in your language it's there. But that's not automatic either, right? That takes some time.
And I can say when I first started as a principal, like I didn't know I was going to make it. I had awesome mentors who supported me. I had to find connections. I had to find these things on my own before I researched and knew that it was there. um and they became survival skills for me um so that I could do this hard work. But there's a ton out there, you know, I post each week on my Instagram which is joyful principalhip. Um I post a gratitude prompt each week different strategies, but there's a ton of books um out there if again positive psychology realm. Um and I read as much as I can. Um learning is one of my strengths and so that's where I um go right away is what can I read to learn? Um so I have a whole list of books. Um a couple of my favorites are The Happiness Advantage by Shaun Aor, which really talks again about positive psychology. How do we frame our thinking?
Um, Gallup has a bunch of things about strength-based leadership which are really awesome. Um, Tasha Urick wrote a book called Shatterproof that I read recently which was another cool way to look at like how do I thrive while the world feels crazy and there's so many different things that I have to overcome. Um, and she has some really nice strategies in that. Um, there is a ton and I'm just continuing to seek more and more and read and kind of share little nuggets out on my Instagram too as I'm learning from some of these awesome people.
Yeah, that's great. Um, we'll put uh your Instagram handle in the the show notes as well so people can follow you and just I mean that's a great way to start, right? Like follow other positive people and you know just grab those nuggets as they make sense for you.
Yeah.
What about joy in just tough times like you mentioned kind of staffing issues like there are times where this job's just double hard, right? Maybe triple hard, right? Policy changes, budgets, those kind of things.
Y
how do you preserve joy in in your leadership position,
you know? think it's okay to feel um and you know there's also toxic positivity and that's not what we're talking about right like
correct
but we can still be joyful in hard things um I think about a season where in the last couple years we've um two years in a row we lost a student in our school which was really hard for everybody so there's a lot of feelings of sadness but yet there were feelings of joy or gratitude when you can say look at how people are coming together to support each other look at how the community is supporting us look at how the kids are being resilient while things are really hard I think think even in that hard stuff, it's it's drawing your attention and your mindset while you're working through those hard things. Um, you know, there's been different seasons in my career where things have been harder and I don't always have it figured out. Um, but even like I can think about a couple weeks ago I had a really hard week, but what did I do? I talked to people who could encourage me, provide me strategies. I reset my um game plan and my um strategies that I was using and I did have to set those boundaries and turn off some of those negative thoughts in my head or negative voices that were um coming in my ear a little bit.
Yeah. Super. Good. So, let's talk to again the hardships of principles. Like if you make it 10 years, like you you've probably got some strategies, right? Make it 5 to 10 years. But what about like 1 2 3 and four? Like sometimes we're not making it. We're burning out. We're going to go do something different. We're going to sell real estate, right? And we see those things and great leaders are stepping out of the classroom. So, what about those folks that are maybe struggling in those first couple years? What would you recommend for them?
I think that relationship piece is key. And it doesn't have to be someone in your building or even on your team, but who is a person you can talk to and strategize? Is it a coach um formal, informal? I look back at how I survived my first year as a principal um without ending up in a sane asylum. Um and I I look back and I think there was um a person who definitely spoke into my life that I could talk through situations with that I could get advice that I knew I could pick up the phone and call if I just needed to talk. Um I think that was a huge piece finding your people um who are supporting you and um who have maybe been through some of it. Finding a mentor or someone who has strategy to help.
Sure. Yeah. Our mastermind group maybe comes to mind. You know, finding a group of people that that get it that are in the work because because frankly in education like most people don't get it, right? If you're not in education, like you don't understand like as a principal, you have, you know, 30 direct reports, which in the business world is insane, right? Like over 10 is too many, right? So it's like suddenly and you know, and some have a high school degree, some have a master's level degree. It's like so it's a crazy leadership position that requires a lot of support. And I think joy is a great tool to bring and to build the school set skill set. So, and I think the business world is picking up on this, right? Like John Gordon is not having a problem finding speaking gigs, right? So, people get it. You know, football teams get it, basketball teams get it. Do do you see K12 like starting to get this? Like where do you see this joyful leadership idea? Like what does it look like 5 to 10 years from now?
You know, it's funny. As I've started this work, I'm seeing more and more people because I think there's such a We know that wellness and selfcare are important and I think it's all kind of intermixed with that and but I do agree like we why don't we work with the business world and and those pieces um or even I think for us healthcare is such a connection because it's still people business and it's hard to turn some of that off too. Um but I do think we need to take care of ourselves. We need to take care of educators um so that we have a school system in in 5 to 10 to 15 years. And so I do think it's taking off um and I think we need to keep researching strategies and tools that work. and share successes and partner with other people to encourage them in this work too. Um because it's not to be done in isolation. And so finding strategies or people um to talk through and keep us accountable for all of it, I think is important.
Yeah. I think we've got a lot of really innovative people in education that are in here for the right reasons, right? And taking care of them, especially in the early days, right? Like here's some systems, some habits, you know, we're creating some aspiring leadership frameworks for for a district and it's thinking now just like where does joy fit into this right because it's not typical
you it doesn't show up in leadership 101 most of the time
but it should I think that's the key piece I think you hit the nail on the head um how do we put this in principal prepar prep preparation coursework right we give all the skills for budgeting and forum instructional leadership and sometimes discipline even that's sometimes a surprise but um but we don't talk about how you're going to take care of each other or tell or yourself um through the process and I think I'm actually working with a university to potentially develop like a course for leaders. How are we doing this to help um do some of that?
Yeah. Can we stay there for just a second and then and then I want everybody to know like how they can follow you like where's a good place to go to get more information because this is so vital and again we don't talk about it. So when you think about a course and like principal prep uh like what do you think that looks like? Are we talking about habits ideas? Um what are your thoughts there?
I think it's almost that plan development and some of it I as a plan that's going to morph throughout time because if before you're a leader you may not know what that really is going to look and feel like I don't know that you ever understand until you truly you know put your feet in the shoes but um I think it's knowing what are the strategies that I should be the menu right what are those like 12 10 different strategies that I can embed and what what do I try to see what I would like and then when I start what do I want to make my boundaries be and my practices be um how do I have that plan before I go in so I start to save the time in advance so I find connections as I again. So, I choose the healthy options. Um, and then I tweak it as I as my plan changes over time. And again, I can think about my plan. It has changed in different seasons of my life, too, based on where my kids are in life or based on how I'm feeling in life. Um, what I have on my plate. Sometimes it's the quick strategies. Sometimes it's the blocking out more time um to do certain things. So, I think it's kind of helping people to know all of the things so that they're ready to step into that um and know what's there for them when they begin. Yeah. And then I think what what we're trying to do is because we're also redoing some evaluations like principal evaluations and there's actually there's a well-being section in there, right? Like on your personal leadership side, are you taking care of yourself so that you can lead well?
Yeah.
So I I could really see a category and indicy on joy like how are you protecting your joy? Wouldn't that be cool?
Yeah. And I think how many people step into the role and lose habits or hobbies that they love, right? Like um I have a colleague who plays the banjo at school. he shares his habit and hobby, things he loves. Um, but how many of the things have we as leaders let go of that we love? Um, and so yeah, really keeping that as part of who you are and sharing that with kids, I think is powerful
for sure. Right. You you have to have a full cup in order to serve others. So, uh, this has been great, Amy. This is super fun. Uh, yeah, we'll connect some things, but where where can people jump on? We mentioned your Instagram account, but where where else can they follow you?
Yeah, I have a web page. Um, Amy Bossbach spell it cuz ballsbox weird. B A Lsb aug.com and then my Instagram is um joyfulprincipalship and I've been posting and sharing lots of things um and trying to get out to some conferences and around. So I'd love to hear from people who are interested in the work.
Yeah. Awesome. We'd love to recommend you. So we'll put it in the show notes for the podcast. We'll also put it in the description on the YouTube channel as well. So Amy, thanks for putting some joy into our podcast. We appreciate you.
Thanks for the opportunity
for sure. All right, PBL Simplified friends. Uh You need joy in your life. It's not a soft skill. It's not a that would be nice. It is mandatory uh to do this work because I I I have this saying that your best work is 10 years out. And hopefully that's encouraging. Like 10 years from now, you're going to be wiser. You're going to have better experiences. You'll have uh better academic skills. Like you'll have studied a whole bunch of things, but in order to get there, you're going to need joy in this work. And you need to spread that joy to those you're leading. So uh jump into Amy's resources and see what will fit for you and then keep tuning in to this podcast so you can lead inspired.
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