PBL Simplified Podcast Transcript
Ryan: Welcome to the PBL Simplified podcast for administrators brought to you by Magnify Learning, your customized PBL partner. From over a decade of experience with you in the trenches, we are bringing you this top rated educational podcast designed for visionary school administrators seeking to transform their schools with project-based learning. Launch your vision, live your why, and lead inspired. Here's your host, Ryan Stoyer. All right, PBL Simplified podcast audience. Thanks for tuning in again. Today we've got a leadership spotlight. So, we bring in a leader from education or business or sports. Uh, in this case, we do have a a bit of a hybrid here with Simon. Simon's in education, leadership, business. He's in a little bit of everything. Uh, brought him on here to uh maybe stir the pot a little bit. Uh, tell us what he's up to and what he what he thinks is coming. So, Simon, why don't you Thanks. Number one, thanks for being here. Two, tell tell us a little bit about Leaf Labs and and why you do what you do.
Simon: Sure. Thank you, Ryan. And and on that list of of, you know, people who you bring in, I used to do sports. I'm 53. I walk now. I walk with 65 pounds on my back, but I just love walking. We'll take the education the business for now, though. Very good. So, yeah, Simon Holtz. I'm the CFO of Leaf Lab and a co-founder. And really, I've just been a a PBL fanboy um really since watching my dad teach. Um back in the 80s um you know he would do inservices so he would come into school and it was all projectbased so maybe we were building totem poles maybe you know it was that kind of stuff and I just thought that's what school was um even though I went to a little tiny public school in rural Vermont that had no money they really invested in that kind of stuff so me and my friends would you know like we we were jazzed we were like ah school is awesome like no one didn't like to go to school because we got to do this kind of stuff and our principal Bruce Cole. Shout out to Bruce Cole in the Malboro Elementary School, which and the school board. In fact, I might I'm going to try not to cry here. My elementary school just voted to close. The town is literally in collapse population wise. And so, the school has collapsed. But our principal at that time, it was vibrant, Bruce Cole. And he was just this great guy from Medford, Massachusetts, who made the whole playground and the building this safe place to be yourself. Clear rules, high standards, but a lot of space.
Simon: Yeah. Fast forward through I survived four years of public high school, regional high school, had some great teachers, but it was not about the books. Valuable. And I was really happy to get to college cuz then I was like, I'm like very not smart compared to most people around me. I'm going to have to seriously play up here, which was great. Um, so I went through I was a I was a history major even though I was dyslexic. That was typical of like I just loved history. I didn't really care how long it took to read the books. Um, and then I got into teaching and I and PBL was the thing. PBL was the heart of education because it was the thing that made the learning bond to something other than just your head, maybe your body, maybe your heart and make it matter so that you would remember why the Harlem Renaissance mattered if that was the your subject or why, you know, ecosystems are like, you know, whatever, you know, whatever the thing is. Um, but I got bored of teaching. I got bored of teaching after, you know, the better part of a dec And I got into administration because um you know I could do it better frankly. I mean I know it kind of sounds argument. I was like I just came at teaching from more of a student eye view than traditional upper crust New England administrators did and then I just stayed in in you know progressive ed in independent schools because it it was just resolutely student centered. And one of the things I really found was that um The progressive ed movement in America now is still not totally clear on the difference between progressive and permissive.
Ryan: Give us the definition.
Simon: So progressive says we're building young people for the future. They need specific forms of scaffolding targets and a structure that's flexible. Permissive says whatever, man. And that's one of the fears that I think people get with project-based learning, right? Is we're going to give kids voice and choice and they're afraid that it's going to be like your of permissive. It's like, "Okay, kids, figure out how to register people to vote. Do whatever you need to do. I'll see you in four weeks." It's like, "No, no, no, no, no, not at all. We've got structures. We've got processes.
Simon: We've got instructional models." So, in Right. So, in the lab to come to the lab, they would hear the same thing. You're going to do this challenge. We're not going to check in with with you in four weeks. We're going to come back in four minutes and just see if everyone's had a chance to say something yet. Yeah, that's right. Super light touch. very clear small enabling constraints to the conversation. That's what PBL is and that's what the lab is about. And it was really only through meeting a truly nutty guy like order of nuttier than anyone I had met in education who I met at the Boston University Agile Innovation Lab in the spring of 2020. A guy named Jeff Burstein who was as extreme as I was just in a very different direction. He had been working in Fortune 500 companies um larger regulated industries like finance um you know government NASA level stuff he was trying to bring purpose to the work to improve communication like I was trying to bring purpose to the work of standard high school in college
Simon: PBL because really PBL is actually how humans just learn best. it's you know it's like the magnetism of our humanness is a full spectrum bulb PBL lets all that in and lets all that be necessary to the learning and it's not sliced and diced. But the people who got that it's about the kids, they were fine and they and they're still fine and they'll always be fine. Right. When you're working at the lab or in your PBL experience, what give me uh maybe like a model project like what's a student- centered project that somebody might work on in the lab.
Simon: So a very specific example is we had a startup company um these two women and I and I can talk it's a it's an education startup. It's called the agile mind and they had been developing through the leave protocol. Really cool stuff. Um, your audience could look at our YouTube channel and some of our past conferences to just watch some of the stuff. So, um, and you know, essentially they and lots of other small companies are trying to get off the ground now, but they're capacity constrained. Get five or six smart college students to spend time with that young entrepreneur who's maybe in their 20s or 30s and say, Okay, one of us is a marketer, one of us is a finance person, one of us is a blah blah blah. Get those four college kids together really using their degrees with a with a builder. Then you know that that's an example. So it's it's really directly helping people who are trying to build things in the leaf framework. So it's not chaotic. It's very, you know, uh structured, but it's a flexible scaffolding.
Ryan: Sure. And it and it mirrors it doesn't smear. It's like that's what we're using. an industry, right? We're going to use agile processes.
Simon: Exactly.
Ryan: There there's no freedom in any any industry position, right? I used to be an industrial engineer. They didn't say, "Okay, make it work better." Right. We had strategic plans that came down to an action plan that was then tracked generally every day, every week. Y to see where that works. So, you're giving those kids that real world example. And I would say also
Ryan: building their portfolio out, right? It's like, well, what have you done? Well, bingo. You know, this agile mind. I was their marketer. Oh, really? That's real work. I can I can look that up and see that you have done something. That's huge.
Simon: And so each kid exits the lab with precisely that digital portfolio and two professional certifications um worth $1,500 or something um to boot to show that employer, yes, I solved this project using these tools. I can bring these anywhere. Yeah. Super good. When you as you've been leading in this space, that's a little uh let's just say, you know, innovator first follower stage, you know,
Ryan: and you're leading a school. What are Let's start with maybe mistakes that school leaders can make because sometimes I think we have people that don't jump in because they're worried about the mistake. So, let's maybe put one out there for somebody to to think through.
Simon: I can give you three examples of different kinds of mistakes that I made.
Ryan: Yeah, there you go.
Simon: Um, and and these are all common. I mean, I I was running the school at age 40. That was about the right age, but I had some growing up to do. And what I really didn't understand is how much a good leadership team is the only thing that's going to make it work.
Simon: I was leadership team. So we we started leadership teams. We don't want just the principal or just the assistant superintendent. And that was the mistake I made. That was the mistake I made. I was like 40ome and I'm now and you know it got beaten out of me after about two years because I was just I was just being stupid. Um and I had a good team that was kind and recognized that we were directionally aligned but I needed some coaching. Um and I've had good mentors, you know, along the way. Um but yeah, that's That's it. And so, you know, really the thing is it's about the team.
Simon: If you're going to get paid to do something in the future, you're going to be working on a team. If your if your school is not showing you how to do that, the standard of care in your school might be outdated. The lab rejects that that outdatedness should affect any kid's path to a professional life. And that's why we exist. And that's why any college student or enrolled student in high school who qualifies can can, you know, can can come in for free. I apologize about that. Yeah, super good. So, let's go to the other side of the spectrum and let's say we've got a principal who's ready to buy in to project based learning. Maybe they didn't in the classroom. Maybe they didn't. We've got a lot that haven't.
Ryan: How do they get their staff on board?
Simon: Well, let me give you the three examples of mistakes I've made. That's right. To go back to the question. So, going too fast.
Ryan: Okay.
Simon: And I still make that, but I'm much better at that. Thanks, my business partner. So, going too fast and not building the team first, not aligning the team. Not. So, so really the thing not to do is to do anything until you know you've got a team. Thing one, build that team because once you're trying to do something different, you're going to take flak from every angle. If you don't have a team, you're toast.
Simon: So, you got to build the team. So, don't go too fast.
Ryan: Yep.
Simon: Don't go alone.
Ryan: Yep. What else? I think you have What else?
Simon: Yeah. Here's the thing. And if you let other people's feelings and comfort be the bottleneck to your student's future, not serving anyone.
Ryan: Yeah, that's good. I think we see that in our model schools and those that are leading, we're going to lead uh strong with integrity. We're going to be kind and if you want to get on a different bus, we'll help you get on a different bus, right?
Simon: Yes. And and and it's and it's out of kindness to everyone to do that. And if you can if you can mean the words and say, "Hey, can I just introduce you to somebody at a different school? You know, if you're going to be an authentic service leader, serve your opponents harder than your fans because everyone will get that. And then you don't have to say any other words because what you're doing is showing the intention.
Ryan: The principles that are in a day-to-day where they're putting out fires like how do we manage those two things as leaders?
Simon: Yeah. So, the firefighting thing was probably another one of the mistakes that I made because what happens in that culture is the culture then becomes reliant on the firefighter and the firefighter just loses juice over time. Ask for help early. Burnout is not cool. Burnout is not heroic. Burnout is just you not taking seriously your obligation to what's around you. And I made that mistake, too.
Ryan: Sure. I think that's a good The phrase you used that I heard that rang with me is uh if you're putting out fires and and you're and you're genuinely helping people, then people rely on the firefighter as opposed to structure, process, culture.
Simon: Bingo.
Simon: So, let's say we've got leaders that have made the switch. They're using projected learning. They're they've got kids they're they're giving voice and choice to their teachers. They're giving their teachers are giving voice and choice to kids. How do they know that their innovation efforts are working? Like there are a couple of metrics we can look for as a school leader to say, "Hey, I think I'm getting some traction." The metrics are really dependent upon what the community values.
Ryan: Okay.
Simon: The community should decide what it values most and track that. You pull the parents and say, "Has your kids smiled yet in going to school? Can you take a picture of your kid smiling the next time they want to go to school? We'll take those pictures as evidence that something's working in the building. Then you're immediately bringing it home. You're letting parents be involved in celebrating that change."
Ryan: Okay, let's let's keep going up the the org chart, if you will. So, let's say we've got a superintendent that says,
Ryan: "I see where we're at. I'm new."
Simon: Yep. Yep.
Ryan: I see we need to make a change.
Simon: Yep. What What are the first couple of steps? Yep. And at the board level, you you you anchored in local economic development.
Ryan: Okay.
Simon: Because because the lab as we do it, the PBL we do is designed specifically for local companies to bring small back burner problems to their school's lab. What that then means is like we said earlier, those kids are working on a local business problem. They know these people. So if I'm a school board member, I'm seeing interaction across um constituencies that's building the labor force, but it's building it relationship by relationship, not just skill by skill.
Ryan: So, let me give you uh an example. So, it it'd be great to have the board on on board with you, but I get a lot of innovative educators that have a board that are used to sit and get and they're like, "Well, sit and get was good for me. I went to college. My kids go to college. It works fine. Why should we change something?" So, what what's the language? They bring from the superintendent, assistant superintendent up to a board to help them understand.
Simon: Boy, and that's so this is the hardest one because local because local conditions vary hugely. So all I can really talk about is how to be a connector between those two layers and the stance to take as a leader. Communicate about child well-being.
Ryan: That's good.
Simon: Full stop. Align around that. Give a definition to it. make the definition specific in the way that Tom Gilb shows us and then take action in the way that the LEAF framework allows us to. That's the stack. That's the that's the kit that we've built. Um because, you know, we're of educators. We love education, but we also can't get captured the way we are. Our kids are not being served to the extent like there's just a mismatch between the dollars in and the student well-being we're generating. And that's just a fact. And it's it's primarily an artifact of antiquated mindset. It's not that people are wrong. It's have antiquated systems that are not
Ryan: where do you guys see yourself and and on the podcast you mentioned earlier hey I don't want to offend your audience but we bring on micro schools we bring on large districts small districts a little bit everybody so charter schools private doesn't matter uh so where do you see yourself are you partnering with public schools are you outside of that where you at?
Simon: yeah so we so we part we partner with public schools uh high schools I can connect you with those people after the show if you want to talk to them. um we can we we play with college universities globally. Um we'll play with anyone who wants to bring PBL to life for every single eight whatever it is 8 billion of us. That's our goal.
Simon: Yeah. We want to we want to have everyone have that stoke have everyone love going to school and have everyone frankly have access to school and that's that's our commitment.
Ryan: Yeah. It's exciting. We've got a similar vision. Our vision is to have 51% of schools using PBL by by 201. So we we put a time frame on it. 51. So we call it 51 by 51.
Simon: Okay.
Ryan: Uh so we've got 37 years or so. Um and what we found is that we can't be training that many schools all at one time. So we look at sustainability. So we're trying to create sustainable systems.
Ryan: They got their own PBL coach. They have a leadership team that knows how to innovate. So their own internal innovation.
Simon: Nice.
Ryan: We've got districts that have their own. So at some point they're using our our resources to train their own people. Got a couple model schools that actually certifying their own practice based on our resources. So, we've got these independent, not independent because we stay connected and partnered with them, but we change the partnership from a consultancy, if you will,
Ryan: to more of a partnership. We're working tandem together. Generally, I like to say if we're still partnering like eight years from now, intensely, we're doing we probably did something wrong. You you should be built up. We we say after three years, you should really be sustainable. Have your own people in place to be able to do this work. Three years is plenty. Three years is plenty. And it's it's the work that educators want to do, both teachers and leaders. It's how you've always wanted to lead. It's how you always wanted to teach.
Simon: Yeah. And students are usually uh they're they're quick to jump in as well. So, yep. It's good work.
Ryan: I think we're going to get to 50% before 31.
Simon: Okay. Hey, if we if we hit there early, I'm in. Okay. That's no problem. Well, and and I and I think there's a very specific wellness case to be made and The wellness case is going to be invisible in the bodies and in the spirits of the young people going to school and the schools that get it right and say we care and we're going to partner with our local business community to fund the metrics and we we make these new forms of alliance and partnership across and between our institutions. That's going to draw it in because what do kids want to not have school suck? What do parents want for kids to be like, I did something cool at, you know, at school today. It was relatable. I did something right. not just I followed instructions. Well,
Ryan: Simon, it's been awesome to have you on the podcast. Uh I don't think you offended everybody. I think you pushed us a little bit, which is great. Uh so, thanks for coming on today. Where can we find more about you and your work?
Simon: Sure. Yeah. So, my Substack, The Economist. Um that would be one place. And The Economist is a madeup word, but I explain why. Um and then also on LinkedIn. I love to have people find me on LinkedIn. Um I'm also at the at Leaf uh and Leaf Lab, so you can find those places as well. And Ryan, thank you so much. I mean, I'm just I'm so sto so stoked for what you guys are doing. The progress you've made is awesome. You know, I hope we can come back in a year maybe to this conversation and Oh, let's do that. We'll we'll do an update. We'll do an update of our guesses. So, you're you're at 51, I'm at 31. And let's just see what Let's Let's do updating in a year if you're game.
Ryan: That sounds awesome. That sounds awesome. Honestly, I hope you're right. I'm I'm good getting there early and then we'll take on the next challenge. So, we shall see. Thank you, sir. I really appreciate the opportunity. Thanks, Savan. All right, PBL Simplified listeners, thanks for tuning in uh for this leadership episode. Yeah, I think we've got some ideas here that can uh help you avoid some mistakes and burnout, help you move towards uh student centered outcomes, and hopefully pushed your thinking just a little bit more uh to go to the next level. So, thanks for tuning in. Go out and lead inspired.
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