Welcome to the PBL Simplified podcast for administrators brought to you by Magnify Learning, your customized PBL partner. From over a decade of experience with you in the trenches, we are bringing you this top rated educational podcast designed for visionary school administrators seeking to transform their schools with project-based learning. Launch your vision, live your why, and lead inspired. Here's your host, Ryan Steuer. Hey, I found this really cool instructional strategy. It's called project-based learning. You want to try it? No. Hey, I think about moving our school to project-based learning. I heard it's really great. You want to try it? Nope. Hey everybody, I'm doing PBL and I absolutely love it. Listen to this really cool project that my kids just did. Do I have to? Today we're talking about five reasons that people don't do project-based learning. My name is Ryan Steuer. I'm the CEO of Signify Learning and this is the PBL Simplified podcast for administrators.
Thanks for joining me today. We have a solo episode uh that came out of a conversation I was having with a group in Missouri. They're doing some amazing project-based learning work. They're engaging teachers in this new instructional model. They're trying to support them the best way they know how. So, they're finding training. They're finding coaching. They're talking to all the right people. And the question came up, why is this so hard? Like, why don't more people want to do PBS? Well, when we do it, it's amazing. Why wouldn't more people want to do amazing? So, I came up with this episode. Five reasons people don't do PBL. I think they're going to be a little surprising. I don't think they're what most people tell you. Some people will tell you that it's too hard and teachers burn out. I heard that from some pretty big voices in the PBL world that uh they've kind of switched a little bit. They're moving more towards curriculum.
to try to hit the the big mass of teachers like early late majority because people won't do it. I don't think that's the right answer. You know, at Magnified Learning, we used to have this great PBL library from all the trainings we've done. We kept all these project ideas and we cleaned them up. They had rubrics and entry events and we stored those and it was actually the biggest traffic to our website was people would go to the PBL library and It was all everybody that knows anything about SEO was like this is a gold mine. Like people are coming to your website and they love it. But what we found was because you could track to see who downloaded what, right? So a whole school would come and everybody would download like 20 PBL units and then go back and they wouldn't get any training.
We'd call them up say, "Hey, do you want to do some training?" Like, "No." "Well, you doing training with somebody else?" "No." "So you just took these PBL units and you're going to do PBL without any kind of training around mindset or skill set? No multi-day training with coaching? Nope. I think we got it." It's like, ah, I don't think you do. I think that's going to produce really, really, really bad project- based learning. And in fact, it does. Like, if you don't train around mindset and skill set and really have teachers feel the difference in the learning process, it does produce bad PBLO. So, I don't think that it's just too hard. Like, we don't believe that here at Magnify Learning. Like, We think there are some very different reasons uh that people don't do PBL. And we think there are some really neat ways that you can invite the early and late majority of your staff to do PBL. Like we've got those processes in place.
It's different than your innovators for sure, which is actually the very first reason that people do not do PBL is that you gave the wrong pitch to the wrong people. When you look at the innovation curve, if you're an innovator, principal or teacher, maybe when you were in the classroom, and you say, "Hey, I'm doing project- based learning. Hey, you want to do it?" And I actually found this when I was in the classroom. So, I was teaching eighth grade English. We had a small group of teachers that were using project- based learning, a school within a school, and we said, "Hey, anybody that wants to know about PBL, like come to our PBL meeting." Oh, okay. Well, when is it? Wednesday, 6:00 a.m. before school. Like, uh, no. That's dumb. And it's like like and and we were just pitching to the wrong people, right?
Like early late Majority they probably don't want to come in early on a Wednesday morning when they're not required to to learn something that they don't know anything about. Right? I on the other hand was like staying up till midnight on it was called Titan pad at the time as kind of pre my Google Docs world world right where multiple people could be on this pad and have ideas and we're making group contracts and schedules. I was an innovator like that's the stuff I love to do. I wanted to do that but then I would go and pitch it to other people in the school that were not innovators. were early, some were late majority, some were laggered, someone didn't have any anything to do with it. And I was like, "No, you should totally do it. It's great." So, if you're pitching PBL to the wrong people in the wrong way, they're going to not want to do PBL because there's a different way that you pitch early majority.
So, once your innovators are are using project- based learning, now your your early majority and late majority, they want to see it working in your school. They don't want to be the first ones to go and try project-based learning. They want to be the second, third, third, fourth, maybe like seventh, eighth, and ninth, right? And they want to have a planning form that's already been tested at your school that people like. They want a group contract that's already been tested. It's got your your logo on it, right? People like it. They've used it. They want to have an entry event system where they've already seen an entry event. So, your innovators went first. You invited early majority and they said, "Oh, okay. So, this is what an entry event looks like. Great. Now, I can see what it'll be and now I can figure out my own." But they're not innovators. They're not going to go do that on their own. That freaks them out. And that's okay.
It doesn't mean they're wrong or lazy or that they don't get it. That's my air quotes for those of you on the podcast uh if you're not watching on YouTube. Um early majority just needs to see it a little differently. So, what we like to do is if depending on your implementation model, but we've got a great implementation going on in Ohio right now where uh K12 the innovators went first and they're doing the work and in in super authentic ways. And now we're starting to share that with the early majority right now knowing that early majority and late majority are going to get trained to the summer. So we're starting to say who wants to go next. That's a very different ask. It's a very different ask. Do you want to do PBL? We're saying now that you've been to an entry event, now that you've seen a presentation, now that you see all the resources and the training that are available, you've talked to teachers, you've talked to students, now would you like to do project-based learning?
Would you like to get trained this summer? and they say yes. So the same people that would have said no to PBL if you just said hey you want to do PBL those same people will say yes if you ask them in their language right? You have to find out their PBL language if you will just like the five love languages by Gary Chapman. You have to figure like what's their language early late majority is different than talking to innovators so that's the first reason that people don't do PPL is they were asked to do it in the wrong way with they didn't understand or a way they didn't speak. The second reason that people don't do PBL is that we are fighting over a century of traditional teaching inertia. We've been teaching traditionally for a very long time. Like if you haven't seen uh Sir Ken Robinson's video on education paradigms looking at the industrial revolution and how we pump kids out through that traditional process, like go watch that. It's great. I'm sure you've seen it.
Um when you look at that, you say, "Well, that's ridiculous." But that's the inertia that we're pushing up against. Right? Like I went through a traditional system and I was very good at it. Right? I had a 4.2. I was a threesport athlete. Like I did traditional high school very well and that's what I knew. Went to college traditional teaching environment, right? Went to Purdue. There were 800 kids in my chemistry class. So it was going to be a lecture. I remember calculus the very first week. First they covered my entire year of high school calculus in the first week. And he went on to an overhead, filled it up with a bunch of equations, second overhead, third overhead, and started to pack up. And then he went back to the first overhead again and just started writing stuff down again. He went through it three different times. It was just straight lecture. He didn't even look up. Okay, I made it through that. So, I guess that's how you do school. So, I got in the classroom.
That's what I tried to do. Found out it didn't work with my learners. So, I need to do something different. I'm an innovator. I have no problem with that. I have no problem fighting against that inertia. There were systems in the school I needed to fight against and push against and I didn't mind doing that either. But not everybody is willing to do that or at least not at first. So when somebody says I don't want to do PBL, we've got to figure out well why is that? And sometimes it takes a little bit of uh nudging to just figure out like is it that inertia from you know 100 years of traditional teaching? Like were they really good at traditional teaching? So they think everybody should do it that way. Those are fine ways to look at the world. But then we want to look at what's the impact of that for your learners. And I find that if you when you start to have that conversation of just like why do we do it this way? Why have we done it traditionally for so long?
And what is the the results of that? That people start to go well is there another way to do it? Because frankly when I was in the classroom I didn't know I didn't know there was a different way to do it. So when project based learning came along I said oh this is interesting. I'd try something different. I was in a failing school so why wouldn't I? And it did amazing things. When we had a school within a school. Our part of that school was a percent and a half higher in attendance. The discipline was only 8% discipline with 25% of the kids. In an F school, we would have been a B if you looked at standardized test scores. That's an amazing difference after and that's year one, right? Like that's no dip. Like that's yours year one right off the bat. So super exciting work, but you got to understand that we are fighting a a large we're pushing a big boulder of traditional education out of the way to do PBL.
The third reason that people don't do PBL is that teachers are trained but the leaders are not ready. So let's say your teachers have gone through a PBL jump start. They did three days. They're getting virtual coaching so they're well supported throughout the year but then they look at their evaluation and the evaluation super traditional. As someone that's always been, you know, the evaluator comes in and it's presentation day and they don't know how to even fill out the evaluation. So it does not go well. And then you look at this schedule and this schedule might need a tweak to support your teachers. There might be some common assessments that your PBL teachers should certainly certainly take, but could they do in a different order, a different scope and sequence? So your teachers are trained, but your administrators are still doing sit and get during a faculty meeting, right?
And if that's your issue, actually, if you go to our website at magnifyp.com, at the bottom, there's a quick fix for your faculty meeting. It takes less than 15 minutes and we can completely fix your faculty meeting so it's more collaborative, less sit and get. That's a side trail though. But the key issue is that eventually teachers will abandon project-based learning for traditional teaching because they keep hitting the ceiling of administration and the leadership team. At some point the teachers are going to give in and it'll happen at different points for different teachers, but most of the time you you'll have a few people that'll fight against it. I've got good stories there, too. But most of the time, teachers are trained, administrators aren't ready. Eventually, it it falls apart because there's just not enough support for it, right?
Professional development needs to look different if you're bringing professional de if you're bringing project- based learning into a classroom, right? Those things need to look different. The fourth reason, we're just going to flip the third reason. So, what if the leaders are trained, but the teachers are not equipped? So, we have we have this, you know, if it doesn't seem like a real situation, it totally is. You've got a new leader who is, you know, now a building leader or maybe even an assistant superintendent who knows that project-based learning is an excellent way to bring student centered learning to classrooms. It empowers students. It empowers teachers. They believe in the employability skills that we're building, the 21st century skills, and they know that standardized test scores go up as well. But the teachers aren't ready. What do you do? Top down mandate. I know this is right. Let's do it. Everybody's going to do it. we're starting now.
That's never worked in the history of education. So, how do you build a grassroots movement? That's what you need to do. So, can you build a grassroots movement or does a grassroots movement have to happen naturally without any leadership involvement? We've got a way that leadership can actually start a grassroots movement and you're just inviting teachers into the process. It's much less mysterious than you might think. And I came from a grassroots movement that was not administrative. are supportive. But when you've got administrators that understand the work, now you can develop a leadership team. Administrators, coaches, teachers, they've all got voice in this idea of let's transform the classroom. Let's make learning look different so we have different outcomes.
And once the teachers start to get involved and they've got a voice, then you have those teachers start to implement in that first year while the leadership team is building structures and processes that support project-based learning. And faculty meeting is the easiest thing to fix and it starts to show the whole staff that we're going to be collaborative and we're not just going to do sit and get cuz your student culture will never rise above your adult culture. So adult culture happens to needs to change first happens at the leadership level. Now your teachers that are in this leadership team are going to start implementing project-based learning. They're going to do a PBL and they're going to invite other teachers in that early majority and we're going to start to ask that that early majority, hey, do you guys want in when you look at this? And the next wave will come in. And you can do this in waves. It doesn't have to be this top down mandate.
And this grassroots movement starts to happen. And teachers start to see the benefit to the learners. They're more engaged, which means test scores are going up, which means discipline is going down, attendance is going up. All the markers that you're tracking as a principal are going in the in the right direction, but your teachers are pushing for them. That's what it looks like to start a grassroots movement. And your teachers are asking to be trained. They're saying, "Well, how come my kids don't get that opportunity that this other teacher had?" "Well, she was trained in project based learning last summer. Would you like to be trained in project- based learning?" "Yes, you need to send me to that. I demand that you send me to that." Right? And it's the same flip we see in the classroom. But you can actually create a grassroots movement where your teachers are asking for project-based learning.
So, if you if you're an administrator and you know the right way to take your school, but you're not sure how to get your teachers trained, do not do the top down mandate. Okay, it it just doesn't work. That falls apart as well. But you can create a grassroots movement by making a leadership team that is diverse and built up uh of different stakeholders. The fifth reason that people don't do PBL is they just don't know how awesome it could be. They just don't know how awesome it could be. They've never been to Rise Elementary where these girls are doing amazing uh STEM projects where they're actually revolutionizing STEM. The whole STEM field uh where test scores are going up, engagement's going up, they're on the news constantly because their PBL units are newsworthy. They're not at a high school where every kid gets PBL when they go through that general science course. They haven't seen that in in the flesh. They haven't seen it in person.
And so they don't really know the full effect. They haven't stepped into one of our PBL model schools like Columbus, Indiana. And when you as soon as you step in the school looks different. It feels different. It sounds different, right? The kids speak differently. They You ask them like, "Well, how does grouping work uh with students?" Like, don't you kind of get tired of being grouped with the same people? And they say ridiculously mature things like, "Well, in the workforce, you have to work with a variety of people in groups. You don't always get to pick them. So, you have to learn how to work through conflict so that you can be effective and achieve your goal." That's I paraphrase that, but that's nearly a quote from one of the learners. that we interviewed at CSA New Techch in Columbus. Like it's a totally different world.
If you go to one of our PBL model school sites and start to talk to the staff, the students, the administrators, you'll see that PBL is awesome and you will 100% be on board. You'll be see how do I get to that next level? So, if that is you and you want to go to one of our PBL model schools, we'd love to set that up for you. If you've got a few people that might be interested and you want them to come to one of our on-site with another school, We're happy to give them a couple seats in the back so they can go through the process and see it. Here's what we found is that when somebody goes through the training process, they're never like, "Eh, it was okay." It's always like just three days of awesome and they're inspired and they're excited and they can't get enough of this. They see the instruction, they feel the difference because they actually like your teachers feel empowered during these trainings. They're not bored.
They're working on a PBL for their grade level, their content area that they can implement next semester. It's such a big deal. Such a shift for for professional development that then shifts into your student learning. It's the process that works. We use PBL in the training to teach you about PBL. So, however it is we can get you to see the awesomeness of PBL, like reach out. We'd love to do that. If you want to reach me directly, it's Ryanagnifepl.com. Ryanagypbl.com. Happy to hook you up. uh with a school that's near you. Sound good? Because those are five reasons that people don't do PBL. They're probably not necessarily what you thought and there's definitely ways to get around them. I would say those five are real though, right? So, you don't want to just discount them. If somebody says, "Hey, I don't want to do PBL." You don't have to take that first answer, but don't just say they're wrong or don't get it. Get curious.
Start ask them some questions like, "Why do you not want to do PBL?" "Well, I'm not sure about this, this, and this. Okay. Well, what if I could show you this, this, and this? Like, what if I sent you some place? Would you then and you saw it? Would that help? Well, yeah, I suppose it would. Are you just sure that Are you just unsure about changing the instructional model because you've always been in traditional classroom? Well, I don't know. Maybe. I've never thought about that. Right? So, start to ask some questions. Get curious about why people might not want to do PBL. And what you find out is they do want to do PBL. They just want to do it on their own terms, which makes a ton of sense. That's why we customize every training that we do because you should be doing PBL on your terms, the terms that work for your staff. And what we find is when that happens, then just after three short years, you have a fully sustainable PBL system at your school. You have internal innovation.
You're pumping out student outcomes like uh engagement, empowerment, creative thinking, problem solving, communication, agency. These are all things you're talking about on a regular basis because you see them in your classrooms. It's it's crazy exciting. Crazy exciting. So, we'd love to have you come see PBL model school. Reach out if we can help. In the meantime, go out and lead inspired.
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