Welcome to the PBL Simplified podcast for administrators brought to you by Magnify Learning, your customized PBL partner. From over a decade of experience with you in the trenches, we are bringing you this top rated educational podcast designed for visionary school administrators seeking to transform their schools with project-based learning. Launch your vision, live your why, and lead inspired. Here's your host, Ryan Stoyer.
Ryan Stoyer: Welcome to PBL Simplified podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Stoyer, CEO of Magnify Learning. And today we've got a leadership episode, which means we've got a guest coming on to give you a little bit more information. If it's your first time here, we'd love for you to go to whatispbl.com to get some free resources for yourself as a leader or for your teachers. Today on the podcast, we have Lisa Riegel, and she's been in education for a minute and she is an expert in brain science. I'm going to read you a testimonial from an assistant superintendent: "Dr. Lisa Riegel is an expert at providing job embedded professional development and leadership support. She shares new powerful ideas and strategies for building human capacity for increasing student achievement. Dr. Riegel also develops educational innovations that transform schools, homes, and lives." Lisa, thanks for being on the podcast.
Lisa Riegel: Thank you for having me.
Ryan Stoyer: Like what a good testimonial. Lisa, first question is when did you realize that you were going to be an educator?
Lisa Riegel: So that's kind of a funny story. I graduated from college with an English literature degree and went into technical sales, selling what is now OnStar. I taught people how to sell the product and set up distribution areas. When Westinghouse purchased it, I was let go. I ended up working as a headhunter for factory and clerical workers and accidentally sold myself to a Dutch company selling automatic greasing systems for off-road construction equipment. After about six months, I realized I really hated it because I didn't care if anybody bought grease. I had a quarter life crisis, quit everything, went to Florida with a backpack for a two-week walkabout, and came home realizing I wanted to work with kids. I went back for my teaching certificate and started teaching in my late 20s.
Ryan Stoyer: That's a fun story. You had a bit of a roundabout way to get into education, and now you're an author with a PhD. You authored Neurowell, but it makes me think you had an epiphany that school needed to be done differently. What was that moment for you?
Lisa Riegel: I think that started when I was in school; it wasn't really serving me despite being a good student and rule follower. When I started teaching, it broke my heart to see how much kids didn't enjoy learning and how broken things were. I was fortunate to be at an innovative school with interdisciplinary classes that got kids engaged as opposed to the traditional "sit and get" lecture. I realized everybody doesn't view success the same way, and we need to give kids opportunities to discover their own passions and value different parts of their intellect. As a teacher, I was always about teaching kids, not teaching content.
Ryan Stoyer: Let's dive into your book, Neurowell. What inspired you to write it?
Lisa Riegel: Over the past five or six years, I've heard constant complaints from teachers and administrators about how kids are "different," showing a lack of executive function and engagement. Just as the science of reading changed how we teach literacy, I felt we needed to understand the brain to reframe problems regarding motivation and behavior. The first section of the book talks about contextual factors impacting the brain; for example, because we don't memorize phone numbers anymore, our working memory doesn't get the same practice, which impacts the ability to do math. The second section covers the mental health crisis and stress. The third section is about a Neuroell culture—being safe, supportive, and proactive. The fourth section focuses on parents and positive change in the home.
Ryan Stoyer: We're nerdy about project-based learning, and we know that putting real-world problems in front of kids with voice and choice gets them engaged. From the brain science side, why do things like voice and choice work?
Lisa Riegel: When we are faced with something scary, our stress regulation system takes over and shuts down our ability to think. When students are only allowed one way to learn, without inquiry or trial and error, that stress system goes up and executive functioning goes down. There is also the expectancy value theory, which says that when I believe I can do something and I value what I'm doing, I will do it. In schools, students who don't believe they can do it or don't value the work because it isn't real-world, have a "motivation equation" problem. If either expectancy or value is negative, motivation is negative.
Ryan Stoyer: You mentioned safe environments and psychological safety. We think classroom culture is the foundation for good PBL. From a brain perspective, what's happening to kids in these different environments?
Lisa Riegel: There has been a ton of research on the impact of a sense of belonging. Social scientists have studied collective identity, noting that the military forms close bonds because everyone is a "soldier first." In a classroom, if a kid walks in and feels like those are not their people, the brain perceives danger and releases fight-or-flight or dissociative chemicals. They either tune out, act out, or get out. Establishing that collective identity where every kid belongs is a vital foundation.
Ryan Stoyer: Let's take it up to school staff. How do we do that at a school culture level with the adults in the building?
Lisa Riegel: I worked with a principal whose staff was collegial but didn't have tight bonds. We created an adult PBIS system called "Punch It Up." We had a healthy lunch club where people took turns bringing food, and happy hours in the morning with coffee and donuts where the rule was you weren't allowed to talk about school. You had to talk about your family, dog, or kids to promote stronger ties. We also used authentic celebration tied to instructional goals, like a "100 ways in 100 days" project where teachers wrote down what they did and what they would do differently next time to make it better. This gave them permission to fail and built collective efficacy. We have to move from conceptual words like "values" to concrete actions of what we see and hear when living those values.
Ryan Stoyer: It's like a "quarter twist" that's really important. You can't just have coffee; you have to be transparent about why you are celebrating and how it connects to the "we."
Lisa Riegel: Exactly. I have another book coming out called The 8C Commitment Framework, which operationalizes how you envision, plan for, engage people in, and sustain change. Change is exhausting, and leaders need to know how to support people through it.
Ryan Stoyer: That's one of the first things I help leaders understand—PBL is a change process, which means addressing the innovation curve.
Lisa Riegel: And it is related to your brain. There is a piece in the limbic system called the thalamus, which acts like a data manager for sensory memories. For someone who grew up needing to be perfect, change is terrifying because they are going from being an expert to a novice. If we can teach people how their brains work, they can become more self-aware. We also have to consider the zone of proximal development for adults; if the change is too far out of their zone, they will dig their heels in.
Ryan Stoyer: In our three-year period to bring a school to a PBL model school, we start with innovators, then the early majority watches them, and by the time the late majority jumps in, all the processes are in place. What do you think of that system?
Lisa Riegel: I use a similar analogy of a crew boat. You have about three people rowing like crazy (early adopters), five people who are "sightseers" causing drag, and then "boat sinkers." Boat sinkers might just be terrified of change or have knowledge gaps. You start with early adopters because they are willing to try and fail. I suggest an aptitude attitude matrix divided into four quadrants: able and willing, able but not willing, willing but not able (the trainable ones), and not willing/not able.
Ryan Stoyer: We've found that curiosity and asking questions helps with that back end of the curve. You are also part of Jakapa, which assesses employability skills. Can you tell us about that?
Lisa Riegel: Jakapa is a software solution; "Kappa" is the Maori term for team and "Ja" means go, so it means "Go Team." We measure, train, and track 32 soft skills. It's like a fitness tracker for essential skills where students earn badges and growth data over time. It builds self-awareness, showing kids they aren't "bad," they just might lack specific skills like stress management or self-control. We've had students include Jakapa data on their resumes and get jobs because employers were amazed by their soft skills and growth data.
Ryan Stoyer: Every time we ask industry partners what they want, they say soft skills.
Lisa Riegel: If we can manage stress, we can show up ready to go. There's a brain connection to metacognitive strategies; if we tell our thalamus what to look for, that's what it will find. If you think the world is scary, you'll have a horrible day. If your thalamus looks for the good, the same "rough start" becomes an experience where nice people helped you.
Ryan Stoyer: I saw a video about looking for brown things versus red things; you only see what you're looking for.
Lisa Riegel: Right. That's why we move from conceptual language to concrete things so people can say, "I am good at this," and their brain will look for places to reaffirm that.
Ryan Stoyer: Where do you see the education world in five years?
Lisa Riegel: We need to consider the purpose of school. With AI democratizing information, what a successful person needs in ten years is different. We give lip service to critical thinking, but we need real strategy. AI is leading to "cognitive offloading" of our executive functions. Career readiness in the future won't just be a credential; it will be the ability to think. My calling is to help people understand how the brain thinks so we don't lose what makes us human.
Ryan Stoyer: We'll put links for Neurowell and Jakapa in the description. Where should people start?
Lisa Riegel: Neurowell is a great start for background on a Neuroell culture. My 8C Commitment Framework comes out at the end of the month for leadership and implementation steps. Information on Jakapa is at jakapa.com, or people can visit lisaregal.com.
Ryan Stoyer: Lisa, thanks for being on today.
Lisa Riegel: Thank you so much.
Ryan Stoyer: All right, PBL Simplified audience. We want you to aspire to that vision you have for school. We want to back you up with tools, skill sets, and mindsets to make it happen. Thanks for tuning in.
Outro: That's just what I needed to bring PBL to my school. If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing the show. It only takes 2 minutes and helps the next inspired leader find their why and lead inspired.
