Welcome to the PBL Simplified podcast for teachers brought to you by Magnified Learning, your customized PBL partner. From over a decade of experience with you in the trenches, we are bringing you the top rated educational podcast designed for inspired classroom teachers seeking to transform their classrooms with project-based learning. Live your why, transform your classroom, teach inspired. Here's your host, Ryan Stoyer. Yes. Welcome to PBL Simplified for Teachers, the podcast that is specifically designed for you, the classroom teacher. We want to give you answers to all the need to knows that you have really, that's why we exist. And we've been doing this for over a decade. So, what we do on the podcast, we take the top need to knows that have come through our workshops over the last decade and we bring those to you in solo episodes. We also bring you showcase episodes where we bring a teacher on to talk about his or her PBL unit, what went well, what didn't go so well, what some ideas that you have. Then we also do a little bit of coaching. Kind of a new twist that we have in this podcast is we ask them how can we help? We just do a live coaching session. If you want to be a part of one of those, you certainly can go to pblshare.com. pblshare.com. At the bottom of the page will be a contact page and you can actually just click the a little drop down there and it'll say ask a question and ask your question. We might just get you on the podcast. We'd love to have you on the podcast and talk about your PBL journey wherever it is. You know, maybe we do a ton of coaching because you just got started. Maybe you're a better teacher and you you do a bunch of co of coaching too, right? And be awesome. So, it's super helpful when you get to hear from people in the field, wherever they're at. We're all learning from each other all the time, right? Cuz we believe in being learners and having a growth mindset. That's what we're all about. This podcast episode though is going to be kind of an interesting guest. We're going to bring on Josh Giebel who is the principal of our PBL model high school in Columbus, Indiana. And Josh has been a teacher at CSA New Tech and now he's the principal. So, they had the same principal for a decade. and then Mike retired and the succession planning for such a thing is super important, right? And they did a great job. They brought Josh back in after being a principal in a different part of their district and he is just the perfect person for it. So, I wanted to bring him on the teacher podcast though to so that you could hear him talk about from the principal seat. What does evaluation look like in a project-based learning classroom? What should it look like? What can it look like? What are some things that you should know? So, we talk about about like what are the teacher like sometimes you feel anxiety don't you like when evaluation day is coming up it's like even if you're like a rockstar teacher it's like do I try something new what happens if I get dinged like what does it look like right sometimes there's anxiety around those evaluations so we talk about that we talk about the difference between a walkthrough that has feedback and an actual evaluation and if you're moving towards PBL and you're used to a traditional evaluation system what does that look like so we get into this question and more with Josh today on the podcast. So, I think you're going to love that. Before we jump in, I do want to tell you about another podcast called Binge PBL for Teachers. Binge PBL for Teachers. And the whole idea is that you can binge these episodes just like you do Netflix. There's 20 episodes, so it's not ongoing like this podcast is 20 episodes. Each episode is less than 15 minutes, so you can just go one right after another. And we're starting to talk about some of these big need to knows all at once. So, if you need that PBL overview, that is the podcast. for you. Binge PBL for teachers, you can subscribe uh at anywhere you listen to your podcast. Wherever you're listening this one to on Apple Podcast, just go to the search box and put in binge PBL for teachers and you'll see by Magnify Learning and you can grab that. I think you're going to love it. We've gotten really good feedback so far. It's this whole idea that you can just kind of pick and choose what are the topics that you want to really dive into because on this podcast it's every other week, but really we're picking some of the topics right now. It's based on what you're you're asking us for, but You know what I mean? Like what if you don't want a guest episode? You just want to dive into entry events. Well, that binge episode is exactly what you need, right? I do think that you're going to love the conversation we have today with Josh because it is a very open and honest conversation from a principal about evaluations and what does that look like for you as a teacher. I hope you enjoy this episode with Josh. All right, Josh, thanks for joining us. Uh just in case anybody's checking out the YouTube version, of this podcast. We are recording at the end of first semester. So when Josh has his Christmas sweater on, I just want you to know why. Josh, thanks for tuning in today.
Absolutely. I'm glad to be here.
Hey, uh it is the end of your semester. Uh how are things going there? I mean, I know that you're crushing it. I know you're going to teach to the last hour and but you know, you've got an awesome environment at CSA. I already gave your intro, but um how how are things working for your your teachers, for your facilitators and your learners.
Yeah, it's it's been a good semester. I I think this every year like there's no way that this semester could go faster than the last one, but it does. It somehow finds a way to get to, you know, end of December and we're like, okay, I mean, we have seniors who presented their senior project this week um that are graduating early. And so that's always a real uplifting big day, you know, a chance to celebrate those that worked hard and and are ready to take that next step. Um so we got some pictures out on our our CSA rock in front of the sign. Um, and and that's kind of a tradition we've done. So, that that was really that was a great thing that happened in the last week and we've got, you know, we just got we've got projects wrapping up. So, we've had community partners in and we've had, you know, final presentations. We've got some students taking, you know, final exams for dual college credit classes. It's it's all it's all good. Um, the semester has been great. It's been good to be back in the building with kids doing PBL and and helping to teach and learn. Um, you know, that that transition back into this environment has been great. I I really love it. Um so good semester. I can't wait to see what next semester looks like. We we welcome back after Christmas break. We welcome about 900 eighth graders into our building to tour and to see what we've got to offer. So like we hit the ground sprinting, I think. Um when we come back from winter break, so we're getting ready for that, too. But it's been a great semester. Uh excited to be back. Um really excited what next semester brings.
Yeah. Thanks. It is cool. I that's why I wanted to get a quick update really just for me, but our listeners will like it, too. Uh, your senior projects are awesome. So, if anybody's listening, they're like, "Oh, Josh said senior project." Like, actually,
you might be able to catch when this comes out, they should be able to come and visit. Like, they should come see those those senior projects. They're awesome.
They really are. It's It's a highlight of of our year. Um, and such a highlight for them, too. I They always get nervous, but they uh really It's a It's a culmination of four years of being in PBLO. and we get to see that and they get to,
you know, reflect on that in their senior project and then present in front of a panel and it's just it's it's really powerful to see where they've gone from ninth grade to senior year and and be proud of the work that they've done.
Yeah, it's great to see you back there. Uh little context for our listeners as we jump into our conversation is, you know, you were teaching at CSA Newekch, our national model school. Like you guys have been rocking PBL for over a decade. By rocking I mean environment, culture, space outcomes, community partner, pretty much anything that we measure in project based learning. Like we always recommend that people go and see and learn there if they want to see more about PBL. But you took a stint in a different place in the district um administrative piece. You started up the virtual school. Now you're back as principal, which is awesome. So I wanted to have you on, just in case our listeners are freaking out right now, I want to have you on the teacher podcast because a specific PBL teacher podcast now. Um there's a whole different administrator podcast that admins can can listen to, but I want to have you on today to give a little bit more perspective and we'll jump into that. We're going to talk about evaluations today from your perspective having been a teacher in a PBL environment and now being the principal. I want to grab that from you, but before we do that, you know, we always start with the why. So, what was your why when you were a teacher and then what's your why now as a principal? I wonder if it changes at all if you or maybe you talk about it differently. I'm not sure.
Yeah, I don't I don't know that it it changes a whole lot. I mean, ultimately my why is I got into education because I wanted to make a real difference in the lives of my students, help them reach their goals, help them become better better people, um, you know, all around and and and help them get there. So, as a principal, I don't think it changes a whole lot. I think the the way I talk about it probably changed a little bit. Um, I I also want I want those things for my my staff, my teachers as well. Like, I want them to be better. I want them to achieve their goals. Like, teaching is a hard job. It's a really hard job. Um, and we get into it for for many different reasons. But ultimately, I I think we want our teachers to be successful. Um, so as an administrator, I think I add that element. And I also talk about it, you know, I want our community to be proud of what we do, right? Like when when when our kids graduate, um, when they when our teachers are out in the community, like I want people to be proud of what we do. Um, and look at our our school and say like, "Okay, they're doing something right. Those kids are are coming out. They're ready to go. They're good humans. They're interacting with the world around them and giving back to the community." Like, those are things that I want for for my school. And so my why doesn't change a whole lot. Like I want what's best for our kids, but I think the outcomes are a little bit different. In my classroom, it was like I want them to be successful in whatever they do. But I think as a school now, I'm looking at like how do we how do we give back? Like our community invests a lot of money in in public school, like you know, and and through taxes, like I want them to be proud of what what we do. Um and in doing that, our kids should be reaching their goals, too. Like, you know, they're they're making a difference. They're making a difference in their lives. And doing that allows them to make a difference in our community.
Yeah. I mean, it's one of those deals where if you if you reach the point where the community is super fired up about your school because you're giving back, your kids are thriving, right? So, you're you're hitting the you're hitting the the big like home run goals. You're definitely well past the single. You know, you hit those two. So,
so your national PBL model school, you've taught there, now you're the principal. Um you guys are a K12 track in a larger district, right? So, when kids come to your school, when when teachers come to your school, they know they're going to be doing project based learning. So today we're talking about evaluations. I'm just trying to tee up our evaluation conversation, right? So and we're going to define evaluations as that technical evaluation, right? And not a walkth through with feedback, which we should be doing, but that's a different topic. So this comes up as a need to know in our PBL jump start like level one, two, and three workshops. It always comes up, what about my evaluation? And we sometimes our teachers get a little tense like is my principal going to understand if they're, you know, oneoff or if they're a principal starting like are they ready to evaluate differently? So from this teacher standpoint, what do evaluations look like at at your school? Let's just start there.
Yeah. Well, and and so from a tech technical aspect, um we have our our district expects a minimum of two formal evaluations for the school year. Um and typically that's one first semester, one second semester. Um and I work my hardest to allow teachers to tell me when they want me to come in. Um that said, at the beginning of the here. Like I also tell them I'm going to be in your rooms. Um if there's ever a day that like it's not okay, like I give me a signal and I'll I'll respect that. Um and I might follow up and say, "So what was going on?" You know, and sometimes it's just like
we're doing a test. It's boring. Like there's nothing for you to really observe. Which, you know, is fine, but you know, I I think from from my standpoint, I I just want to be in classrooms as often as possible. Um because I think that also lessens the anxiety around me being in there when I'm for formally taking notes. Um, so you know, I usually start the year off with some sort of goal setting conference where we talk about what they want to work on. We revisit that during those evaluation times. Um, so we do a formal observation. I do a minimum of 45 minutes. I try to stay as long as I can. Um, if I can see a full, we're on a block schedule, so our our classes are 88 minutes. Um, if I can see the whole block, I try to do that. Uh, I don't always have the opportunity to do that. Um, or it doesn't make sense um for me to do that in some cases, but um do that and then we have a post observation followup within the next week. So I I don't let that go beyond a school week where we talk about what happened. Um I um prior to going in usually ask if there's anything in particular that those those teachers want feedback on. Um my my view when I was a teacher was like I want to learn something about what I'm doing. And so I try as an administrator to um to ask those questions and and really my goal as an administrator is I want all my teachers to be the best possible versions of themselves. And so, um, it makes sense to collaborate on that. Um, you know, I I want to make sure that I'm giving feedback that they're going to use or that they're looking for and need. And so, on the technical side of things, I go in, I usually have my iPad, I find a place in the room to to sit and and I um will start just by observing for a while. And then usually at some point whether it's a group work time or a project work time. I find myself walking around and asking questions of kids as part of that
evaluation process too, you know, like there's no greater way of knowing if what's what they're doing is is working than um asking kids, right? Like they they really are the key to to understanding what
what what the students are understanding and what they're learning from that process. And so, um ultimately during that time I'm looking for there's a lot I'm looking for, but I'm I'm looking for um how's how the facilitators form relationships, how they're working with kids. I'm looking for PBL elements. I'm looking for just good teaching practices in general. I'm looking at where they're standing in the room and how they're moving about the room. I'm looking for a lot of pieces as we as we work through that. Um and I also am pretty upfront with my new teachers. Um and I might get into this in a little bit, but I recognize that every day, you know, even our goal is we're wall-to-wall PBL, but I also know there are days where I'm going to come in and it's going to look and feel kind of like a traditional setting, and that's okay. Like, I know my um my facilitators are doing that work. During that time, I'm looking for things that are PBL moves, right? Like facilitator moves. Like, you can you can have a traditional unit and still use PBL moves and use process pieces like nodes and need to knows. Like that's a conversation I have with my with my new teachers all the time. Like, hey, you know, if if you don't have a a home run project for this, that's fine. But like, you can do a lot by just starting your class period off with a no need to know list. Can be a, you know, two or three bullet point list, and you're incorporating that element that that inquiry element that allows you to then get permission from students to teach the stuff you want to teach or need to teach. So, um, I know especially as you're if you're early in that process, uh, of adapting PBL and learning how to do Well, um, you might be anxious about your administrator not understanding what you're doing, but th those moves are are pretty common in a classroom. Like there when you talk about universal design for learning, which is a big piece of our evaluation process, doing things like that checks those boxes. If you know, if you're administrators coming in to check boxes or looking at that, those moves that we develop through PBL, it's really good teaching practice. It's facilitating. It's giving ownership to students. It's giving them voice and choice. those things like on almost any rubric that I've ever seen, they exist somewhere. So those elements are there. They may not be used to it being called no need to knows, but you know, that could be a quick conversation in a post observation that says, "Hey, this is what I'm really trying to accomplish here." So, um, when I go in for observations, I'm I'm looking for all of those positive pieces and I'm looking for opportunities to say, "Hey, you know, you did this. You could you could slip in a need to- know list here or you could do a group contracts and that could you know even if you're only going to be in groups for three or four days like that could facilitate something you know and help you understand expectations for collaboration work. So
yeah you there's a ton of good nuggets that will let teachers mind from that but I think one piece that I I know comes up in workshops all the time and you mentioned it so I'm going to springboard off of that is you've got a district evaluation right you don't just get to create your own I don't think right so how do you Do you crosswalk that or do you just have that conversation with facilitators like where these different pieces fit?
Yeah. So, yeah, we're required to use um our district evaluation tool and so our our our district was able to um back when when the evaluation process kind of got revamped maybe I don't know probably about a decade ago now um we were able to develop our own custom rubric and the state approved it. But our so our our rubric 50% of that comes from universal design for learning which is a big district initiative and that rubric is the same for all teachers and and so even though my teachers are using PBL like I when I go and submit that to the district I'm using that rubric um 25% comes from PBIS um and relationship building and then we've got academic citizenship and student success are the other two um chunks that that fill out our rubric and so we go into that and you know the the first thing that I do with new facilitators and I I say I do but we we've kind of developed an onboarding process and so a mentor teacher or um our UDL facilitator will sit down and look at that part and being 50% of the rubric that's a big piece. So we sit down and we look at it and we we talk about what that looks like in a PBL classroom. Um we've actually developed some kind of checklists for learning walks that facilitators use but it's also something that I'll use in an evaluation. I I'll pull pieces and say like here are some things that I saw that I think are really great and it kind of is that crosswalk piece between UDL and PBL. And again, as I I said earlier,thought of it. The language is different, but the actions are kind of the same. Um, you know, to be able to incorporate options for um expression, options for um, you know, representation, you do that through providing a no need to know list and having workshops instead of having, you know, you're doing one lesson for the whole 45 minute. Like our facilitators know that doing those things that PB make PBL great will also allow them to do well on the evaluation piece of it as well. So,
we find that a lot and where you're in a district, you say, "Well, I want to get to the right side of the rubric." Like, I'm a teacher. I'm trying to do a really great job. All teachers are, right? It's like, well, how do I get over there? And a lot of times, it turns out you actually need PBL as that vehicle to help you get over there to that student inquiry and student collaboration and where are students creating their own questions? It's like, well, a need to know list is a really great way to do that. And it's like, without that though, how do you do that? And it's like, sometimes that's a headscratcher, right? It's like how do you do that without just fabricating this thing? Hey kids, I want you to make your own questions. Now go, you know, check it off the list. But if you've got it kind of embedded in your instructional model and it it should actually relieve anxiety for for facilitators, right? Like do you see that? Because anxiety is a part of evaluation, right? Like there are there are teachers that like there's just a connection like Josh is coming in on Thursday. I better be super prepared. It's like, well, aren't you always super prepared? Yeah, I am. But I want to be super duper prepared, you know, and so how do you kind of work through that anxiety with teachers?
Yeah, I I I mean I get it. I was a teacher. I And I I felt like after a couple years, I was pretty felt pretty comfortable doing the work that I was doing. And I had I mean, I had, you know, probably hundreds maybe maybe thousands of visitors in my classroom over the course of, you know, eight years um as they came and saw PBL in action. Was always super comfortable in that. But then you know, my administrator comes in and there's there's a I guess a little extra sense of of nervousness and I get that. I think that's natural. Um, I think the the way I work with teachers on this like one again as an administrator like I try to be in the room a lot just to normalize my presence.
It's a great move for sure.
Y and I know like this is geared towards teachers, but my advice would be like invite them into your classroom just to, you know, and and maybe showcase things that you know are going well. Like have them come in or just have them come in on a random day and and just I think being able to do that and get because it also gets kids used to it which is a big part of it, right? Like I've I've been in evaluations where you know I come in and I sit in and all the kids act differently than they would on a normal day because hey oh my principal's in here, right? And so that's a reality too. So I think
getting kids used to that getting um getting teachers used to that just being in there is is big. But again I I think a big piece of it for for teachers that I've work on is like if you're doing the work, if you're making the effort, like it doesn't have to go perfectly. Like I had lessons after eight years of teaching that I thought were going to great go really well that that flop. And like I also recognize that one snapshot of your class is not the day-to-day. So, you know, I think I invite teachers to while those those pieces are happening, while you're doing those things that may not be present in every every lesson that you want me to know about, like send me an email, you know, copy me on a lesson. I don't have many teachers who record stuff anymore, but like, you know, be able to tell me like, hey, this is what I've been doing. This is what I'm trying. And I think just being for me, I don't know, I think mo most administrators want their teachers to be successful. And so when we talk about the evaluation piece, like, you know, we know that if teachers are successful, then our students are successful and then the school is successful. So, you know, I I don't I try not to to make the evaluation a bigger deal than like, hey, this is feedback. We're working to get better. Whether you're a first year teacher who has a lot of room to work to get better because you're just
brand new to this or you've been teaching at my school for 15 years, like there's something that we can do that's going to improve
their lives, improve our their practice, be able to make them feel like they're more successful. So, my job is how do I find that and how do I help, you know, either observe what may be going wrong or may not be going the way they want. or observe, hey, you did this. You may not have known it, but it's actually hitting that goal. So, like, how can you multiply what you're doing there so that it's present more? And and so for me, it's it's line of communication. Like, if you never have any conversations about your own practice as a teacher with your administrator or your supervisor or whoever is doing your evaluation, it's really hard to know what they want from you. One, but two, it's really hard for them to know that you're trying to do certain things. and need help doing that. Like,
yeah,
there's
shouldn't be a sense of if I tell my boss I'm struggling with this or my supervisor I'm struggling with this, he's going to evaluate me lower. Like, we have the same goal. We want that. We want teachers to be successful,
right? I think there's a there's a really good nugget there. I mean, some teachers are just thinking, I wish Josh was my principal. It's like, but we can't do we can't do that necessarily, right? Unless you go to CSA, you can you can tour and then we'll see see how it goes. But, um, But I think the nugget of the communication is important and maybe if it's not there like maybe you're maybe someone's listening and they have a principal that doesn't quite get it yet and that's okay too right like they been in a traditional environment they might be trying to understand PBL but they're not there as the teacher we can go and say hey boss here's what I'm trying to do even before an evaluation right like you said like you're always in classrooms not all principles are it's best practice but it doesn't always work in all districts so um I get that But if if it's your principal is not always in there, doesn't always understand what you're doing, don't just let it happen through the grape vine, right? Or through kids or parents to get back to your principal, right? Like find some ways to say, "Hey, here's what we're doing." And just and get feedback. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to start grouping on Wednesday and and this let's just say it's a non-evaluation day, right? But we're gonna start grouping on Wednesday. I've got a group contract. You know, I read this book. I'm pretty excited about it, but I'm not real sure how it's going to go. Do you have any tips? Like could right? Can you give me some feedback and invite that principal into, you know, helping your classroom get better and you're showing this growth mindset and you're you're doing something that maybe other teachers aren't doing and and that can help with communication.
Yeah. I want I think it's huge, right? Like I think a lot of administrators in in some capacity were in a classroom. It's not always the case, but they probably went into administration because they felt like, hey, I I'm I need a place to grow in my education. I want to help more people do better.
And so like being asked for advice on something and feedback on something like that that you know whether or not that's the motivation you want, but that's it's one of those things where it's like, "Hey, someone's asking me for something that I used to do really well and I want to I want to dive in." Even if it's something that I don't know about, like if someone says, "Hey, I want to go try this strategy. I read about it in this book." Like my usual instinct is like that book gets added to my good readads list or I go and buy it and and I start digging in because I want to help them. You know, if this is a strategy that's going to work for them, it might work for other facilitators down the road. And so, how do I help and support that? Um, it fuels us. You know, it's kind of that aha moment that, you know, when you're in a classroom, like you look for those aha moments, those light bulbs, like those are super rewarding. I think the same thing is true for administrators when they see a facilitator get that thing that's got them excited that's going to propel them into better teaching practices.
Yeah, that's a great point because most principles like you teacher comes in it's like okay what's the problem like what here's a here's a fire I've got to put out like no like hey boss you know I appreciate you being here could I get some advice from you
oh yes that would be great you know or uh or a tuning protocol or it would be a great time like
have your teaching partners like be a part of that tuning protocol but invite your principal or an assistant principal in you know someone who's doing your evaluation invite them into the tuning process at the beginning of your PBL unit let them give feedback A bunch of things happen in that, right? Like they get an overview of this PBL unit that you want to launch. They're now a part of, you know, kind of building it, right? And it it again, communication, communication, but I one of the things I love about tuning protocols and I mean, you know, any any participant that goes through a workshop like they love the tuning protocol. It's just a given, you know, because you get feedback so quickly and suddenly you're a part of all these different PBL units. Same thing happens with principles. And I love what you said, Josh, that's like The principal doesn't even need to know about PBL honestly. Like you don't it doesn't have to be your expertise. You just want to lean in and help.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, and I I can't say enough like the tuning protocol. I use that language. So, you know, we we talked about the formal evaluation and we talked about I try to be in classrooms like anytime I'm in a classroom, I make a I make it a point to try to type an email or send a note afterwards with a couple things I liked and maybe a wonder, you know, like um sometimes I don't have a wonder. Some Sometimes they're just things I like, right? You know, but those wonders and I think that's the other piece that I I think and it comes again it comes back to communication like
I tell my staff up front like I will on the notes that I send you like I I you I don't change them. I I take the notes, I put the questions, I have it all there. Um I will have a lot of questions and that's because I want to learn, right? Like it's not because I don't think you're doing something or it's not because I don't think you're, you know, I'm going to ask questions because I think reflection is the way that we get better at what we do. And so those are the questions I had and if we can talk about them together then then I think we're in a position where we're going to learn something about your teaching practice and you know if it's something that needs work then we can start talking about how we might work on that. And um sometimes it's just genuine curiosities like I've never seen that before. Tell me tell me a little bit about why you did that what you did and and sometimes like I don't know it was a natural reaction and so okay like and and we work to understand that. So questioning is is huge. I mean really I I think it's it's there's so many parallels between when I in the main office versus when in the classroom like evaluation is something that teachers do every day in their classroom, right? We grade stuff. We are looking at how students are interacting to get a collaboration score. We're looking at, you know, how they're interacting with the content. That's exactly what I'm doing as an evaluator. So when I'm doing that in the classroom, what do I do? I ask questions. I try to get understanding. I try to capture as much different you know views as possible so that I know that at the end of the day like oh yes you've mastered this or well you had it on that day but not that day. So I feel like as an as administrator like I'm learning from teachers too about their assessment practices and and and working with them to figure out okay so yes I'm assessing you but it's not it's not an end product like yes I have to submit this it goes on your like all of that stuff happens but the reality is like I'm looking at you being here for a long time We're looking to how do I map how do we map to toward the same goal? How do we work towards what you want to accomplish? How do we get better every day knowing that with a a first year teacher right out of of a teacher prep program or right out of being licensed, that's going to look different than, you know, the 15-year vet who's been around forever but has never done PBL. It look different than the person who's been in our school since the beginning. Like, we have goals. We're working towards them together. My responsibility is to help you get there. So, not only am I evaluating you, but I should also will be providing some sort of scaffolding and support to get you there. So, I'm I'm looking how do I learn how do I learn from you during these evaluations and conversations so that I can be the best support that I can for you in and your goals.
Yeah, I I I think that's super helpful, Josh. Again, that that's this is the whole point of of the conversation I wanted to bring to the teacher podcast on the administrative podcast. We're talking about, you know, some of these same ideas, but I think it's important for teachers to hear you're the heart of a principal. It's like nobody wants to like get you, right? Nobody's looking with a checklist trying to oh get you, get you, get you. Just like you don't in the classroom. You're not trying to get kids. You're trying to figure out where we at so we can get to where we all want to go,
right? And
absolutely.
If we can look at evaluations as more of a partnership than this high anxiety, you know, you're basically interviewing for your job twice a year and you know, it's it's not that, right? It's not that on the other side.
Um yeah, this has been Great. What else do you think we need to know about evaluations on the the adult side? I like the connection you made from the work we do in the classroom with kids because that the connection always seems to be there, right? Like the way we're evaluating kids is same idea uh with adults.
What's kind of one last thing you you maybe would leave teachers with as they talk about PBL and evaluations?
Yeah, I I mean I I think transparency is is is just important. Um you know, and for for what it's worth, I think, you know, no matter what day. And I I love facilitators who who say this to me, but I also challenge them on it. You know, I've got some where I'm working out to like, all right, let's schedule an observation. Like, come any day. Um, I love hearing that because that means they feel confident in what they're doing. Um, but I also say like I appreciate that, but if there's something you want feedback on, like I'd rather come on a day where you want me to give you something specific than just a, you know, I don't really want these observations to be just, okay, we're checking it off and moving on. Like, I want
Yeah.
You know, I wanna I want to have conversations with with teachers and and help them achieve something they're they're trying to achieve. So, I would rather you invite me in on a day that you think might be challenging so I can help you overcome that than on a day where you're like, "This is going to go perfectly and
I'm going to, you know, check all the boxes." And again, I think it takes a level of comfort with the administrator. So, you know, I guess my advice for teachers would just be like begin those conversations, work to to to make evaluations collaborative and and a partnership and work to make them serve you um instead of having it just serve the administrator, right? Like we yes, it's all it's something we have to do. But if you can use your evaluations and your observations to to serve a purpose and to get better at something that you do and ask for honest feedback, you're going to feel less anxiety around it because you're going to you're going to receive something on the other end, right? You know, you're hopefully you're going to receive some feedback that's going to help you try to overcome something. And so I think building towards that and and asking for that um you know, and I think it it doesn't have to be, again, I don't know your leaders, so I don't I don't know how it is, but in my mind, it's like it doesn't have to be this big scary conversation. It's just I, you know, I think it's okay as a teacher to say, I want my observation to serve me and I want to get better. And so, this is what I need from my observation, you know, and in doing that, it should check the boxes that any administrator needs to follow to be able to
to to write your formal observation, put it in your notes, things like that. So, I think Ask for that. Make it make it about you and make it about how you can get better doing something that you, you know, hopefully are going to be doing for your whole career as you work towards, you know, getting better at at being an educator. So, how how can you ask your administrator to help that to help make that happen?
Yeah, that's great parting advice, Josh. I that last sentence or two right there because when you're asking that principal, hey, can you come in and help me with this? You're honoring that principal, too, to say, hey, can you be a part of this? So, you're inviting them into this and we all want to be invited in, you know, to help. Like that's what we want to do.
Yeah.
Josh, thanks for uh gosh, thanks for jumping in and and having this conversation.
Of course.
I mean, again, so you you're at the very beginning of the podcast journey for Magnify Learning. Uh we didn't really talk about that today too much, but um those original episodes, if you if you recognize Josh's voice, you know, we don't have Andrew on today, but you know, one of the that beginning voice of the podcast. So, you're always welcome here, my friend. It's good. Yeah, it's it's always great to be back on. It it definitely again for me I I just love talking about what we do. Um and I love talking and sharing that opportunity. Uh it it I know it helps hopefully it helps the listeners. I I assume some someone out there heard something that they can take away, but it helps me, right? I think reflection is so important and having the opportunity even just to share what we do is a reflection piece and and it always sparks something that like, hey, this is something I can do different or better or maybe I need to think about this. a little bit more. So, I I always appreciate the opportunity to be on the podcast and um I hope everyone is is getting off to a good second semester and and has a great end of the the school year.
Yep. Thanks so much for being on, Josh. We really appreciate it.
Yep. Thank you.
All right, teachers that are listening to this Movement Maker podcast, uh hopefully this helps relieve some anxiety around evaluations. Have you had that? Maybe frames them a little bit differently as a learning opportunity, time to invite your administrator into the great work that you're doing. help you get better, help them understand things a little bit better maybe depending on you know where they're at. And if you want to be a voice on the podcast, if you wanna if you got into what Josh was just talking about, like this idea of just talking about the work you're doing just it makes it better. Like these rich conversations are super helpful, you can be on the podcast. Go to pblshare.com pblshare.com and submit your need to know. And right now we're we're solving problems on the podcast. So we can bring your need to know. We'll bring you on and we'll just do a coaching session and we'll help uh make your classroom just a little bit better by having some of these good conversations. Thanks for tuning in. Go teach inspired.
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